#108: Rich Roll & Brad Stulberg On Health, Wellness, And Mental Well-Being
Dave: Awesome. So the only bummer is DC couldn't be here with me. He's always on this podcast, but don't worry. Brad, he sent me about a hundred questions on WhatsApp right before this and he was like," Don't fuck this up. Please don't fuck this up." So that's where we're at. For the listeners out there, we have two amazing guests today, Brad Stulberg. He is @ bradstulberg on Twitter. What's up, Brad?
Brad: Hey, glad to be on the show.
Dave: And Rich Roll, who is @ richroll on Twitter. Rich, thank you for coming on and appreciate it.
Rich: Yeah, thanks for having me. Stoked to be here.
Dave: Yeah, so I know you guys have crazy schedules, but this whole thing started with... We went out to Oakland and we spent some time with Brad and he dropped this formula on us, which is stress plus rest equals growth. And that went on to be one of the most popular episodes that we did and really hit on something with this audience and talking a lot about personal and professional growth. So we decided to run it back, and lucky enough to get Rich on here with us. So I usually don't like to... I don't always start at the beginning, but I think having you guys both on here makes a lot of sense. So maybe just do a quick intro... How you guys got into this world cause you both have different backgrounds. Rich was a lawyer. Brad you were a consultant and now your lives are spent really talking about health, personal growth, professional growth, those types of topics. I just love to start there and kind of unpack that a little bit.
Rich: Okay, cool. Brad, you want to go first?
Brad: Sure. I can go first. So yeah, like Dave said, I came right out of school and went to work at McKinsey& Company, which is a fairly well known international consulting firm, and to make a long story short, I love the work. I just couldn't detach from it, and I completely burnt out. After two years there, I was having emotional, physical, just spiritual... I was a mess. So I was fortunate enough to be able to pivot, went to graduate school to study public health because I wanted to be interested... Or excuse me, I was interested in whether people can really achieve that kind of performance, but do it in a more sustainable way, and since then, that has really become my passion, is exploring this topic, working with others on this topic, writing about this topic. And then they say, you write for yourself first. So I'm a major work in progress. I still have a very obsessive personality. I have some anxiety and I try to channel it wisely. But so much of my research and writing is for myself as much as anyone. I'm trying to figure this stuff out too.
Rich: Cool. So I guess mine's next?
Dave: I love it and Rich... Yeah. Yeah.
Rich: Oh, go ahead.
Dave: No, go.
Rich: Okay. So I came at this whole thing a little bit differently. I mean, yes, I was a corporate lawyer. I've been an athlete in college. I was a swimmer at Stanford. My athletic potential was a little bit truncated by a protracted struggle with drugs and alcohol. That's a big part of my story. Ultimately, I ended up getting sober at 31 and spent the better part of the following decade trying to repair the wreckage of my past and become this responsible member of society on the path to achieving the American dream, which is kind of what my whole life was premised on. Only to find myself at 39, 50 pounds overweight, stressed out, basically your classic couch potato entering middle age on a crash course with lifestyle disease and really kind of depressed and unenthusiastic about this life that I thought that I wanted only to realize that it wasn't delivering on the promise of fulfillment and happiness and all the things that we kind of bake into it, or the expectations that we create around it. I had a little bit of an existential crisis that collided with a health scare shortly before my 40th birthday, that kind of catalyzed this journey into exploring health and wellness and fitness into my forties. Ultimately, I ended up adopting a plant- based diet and tackling some crazy ultra endurance races and then writing books about them and starting podcasts. Now I've sort of found myself in this position of wellness pontificator at large, I suppose, and it's not by-
Dave: I love that.
Rich: ...brand design or master plan. It's kind of just... I don't even know how I ended up here, but I'm very grateful to be getting to do what I get to do and not having to be a lawyer anymore.
Brad: And real quick, Dave-
Dave: Why do you guys... Yeah yeah, go.
Brad: Dave let me just chime in for the intro. I think it's also worth noting that in this relationship, Rich is the older wise sage and I'm the young, just trying to be protege. So one of the coolest parts about being a writer is you get to meet people like Rich, and I've looked up to Rich long before I wrote a word. So to kind of have this shared space and friendship and to learn from him and then to get to do stuff like this together is really pretty neat. All right. That sums up our little intro. Kumbaya.
Dave: Oh, I love that. How did you guys get connected? Did you happen to be in the same world? What's the backstory? Why is he a mentor for you, Brad? How'd you guys get connected?
Brad: So I read Rich's book Finding Ultra right when it came out, and that was a time in my life when I was getting into endurance sports, and it was also right kind of fresh off the burnout experience at McKinsey. Like I said, I have an addictive personality. I haven't struggled with a substance addiction, but I have struggled with obsessive thought patterns and things that could be called addictions, just not to substances. So the book really just hit a chord with me and I started to follow Rich. I started to read his blog, the podcast, and just someone that I really looked up to and fast forward a few years when I started writing about this stuff, one of my first features for outside magazine was on passion and looking at passion, not just as this wonderful gift, but also as a potential curse if you don't know how to control it. So I just emailed Rich and I thought he'd be a great interview for it, and I introduced myself and we did the interview and then we kind of got to talking after and hit it off and we've been in touch since then.
Rich: Yeah. I mean, I would say from my perspective I fondly recall that initial phone conversation that I had with you, Brad, and what I remember about that mostly is that, as somebody who's done a lot of phone interviews with journalists, what I'm used to is,'Oh, here's the five questions and let me get through the questions' and they're just writing it down and then they're like,'Okay thank you, goodbye' and that's it. What was different about you is A, you actually seemed interested in the response, which you would presume any journalist should be if they're writing an article about something, but is usually not the case, and you had a very kind of intellectual and nuanced take on a challenging subject matter. We ended up talking for a long time and I was like,'Oh, this guy's cool, he's actually putting a lot of thought into these issues, so that he can write something of value' as opposed to,'I just got to get my 1500 words and so I can bank the next check'.
Dave: I love it. The one thing that I think is interesting is, and maybe this isn't the case, but at least it feels it. Why do you guys think that... Why is this whole genre of fitness and health and mindfulness... Do you feel this is something that is bubbling up over the last couple of years and why do you think that has become the case, where this wasn't something that everyone was writing about, blogging about, podcasting about five, six, 10 years ago? I think it feels like this is a key topic now. I mean, it's why our podcast exists. It's, you know, Rich, the mantra of everything that you do. Brad, with your last book, it seems to be that this is... Something happened in the last couple of years where this is now a topic that everyone is concerned about.
Rich: That's a great question. Certainly, undoubtedly wellness is having a moment. I would contend that it started perhaps a couple of years prior to that, but definitely subject matters related to wellness, fitness, wellbeing, mindfulness, meditation, even minimalism, all of these kind of lifestyle ideas are very much part of the zeitgeists discussion at the moment. And as for why that is, I think it's a function of a number of things. I think it's a function of millennials coming of age, who were raised on the internet and have a different perspective on seeking purpose and meaning through their careers, where there's a priority and a premium placed on enjoying what you do, on giving back, on taking care of oneself, that perhaps was less important amongst my generation being a Gen X-er. And then with the Gen X- ers coming into their forties and their fifties and trying to figure out how to extend their life and be fulfilled and engaged in their careers in a way that perhaps their parents weren't, I think begs the question of wellness and how to take care of oneself, as opposed to just settling into the La- Z- Boy chair for 20 years of reruns. And I think on top of that the internet, with its access to every bit of knowledge that we would ever want or need, has fueled I think an undercurrent of interest in how we can better take care of ourselves.
Dave: Same thing with you Brad. What do you think?
Rich: Yeah, that's a great answer. I don't have much to add. I think Rich hit the nail on the head. You know the only other thing that I would say maybe is, well, it definitely seems like wellness is having a moment. I think that there is still a lot of noise in order to find the signal. I know it's something that we briefly discussed the last time I was on the show, but people... Something for nothing never gets old, and I think that for every one good podcast or really good book with insights that will work, there are 10 to 50 to 100 hack your way to growth, wear this magnetic bracelet, wear this thing on your head and your brain will improve. Cause the truth is a lot of people want wellness, but it's really not about a quick fix. It's about a lifestyle and it's tough, especially if you're not coming from a place of wellness.
Dave: Yeah. I love that. I was going to go there later, but I think that's actually a good segue. I wanted to ask you both like, okay there's so much shit out there. There's so much noise. I don't know if it's right or wrong. How do you guys... And this is kind of a selfish question, because it's something that I struggle with. How do you prioritize who to listen to, who to take advice from? Who are your mentors? And kind of like... Seeking wisdom is something we talk a lot about learning is basically why this podcast exists. I'm just interested in how, maybe starting with you Rich... How do you unpack who you're going to take advice from? What sources you listen to? How do you read... What podcasts you're listening to and just advice that you're taking from people.
Rich: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say that as I kind of mature through this, I have begun listening to fewer and fewer people and have put myself on more and more of an information diet, at least with respect to wellness and fitness. I have a few trusted sources that worked very well for me and I rely on them and lean on them, and those are people I have personal relationships with. In terms of the content that I consume, I would say that, kind of echoing what Brad said, there is so much noise out there, and I think you have to really finally attune your antenna and your radar to see the sort of showboating and carnival barker, snake oil salesman coming down the pipe from a million miles away, and I think if you're paying attention is pretty easy to spot. You can see the signs and the marketing lingo and all the kind of trappings that surround this stuff and the way that the content is delivered, and I just tune all that stuff out. I don't pay attention to any of that stuff. I know what works for me. I have doctors that I've met through... A lot of the people that I trust and rely on are people that I've had as guests on my podcast. A variety of doctors and nutritionists that I trust, and I think walk with quite a bit of integrity. I have a coach for my fitness and athletic endeavors, and I trust him implicitly, and that's a relationship that dates back close to basically a decade at this point. I think kind of a marching order though, that perhaps could be a takeaway for your listeners is despite the fact that it's good to be kind of experimenting on yourself and finding what works for you, it's not about trends and hacks and looking for the latest and the greatest. It's about acclimating your life to the fundamentals, and if you want to play around with a few hacks and things like that, you have to consider them like cherries on top of the sundae. But fundamentally the principles of living a healthy, fit life are pretty basic and they don't go out of style.
Dave: I love that. One thing we talk about is just from a... We think a lot about marketing and from that perspective is, focus on the things that don't change, right? And so there's things that have been around for granted like, in some of the health and wellness stuff, that stuff has progressed over time, but just from a studying people perspective, we think about people haven't changed over hundreds of years. So we try to focus on... There's that core of advice. It's why like, going back and reading a business book from the 1930s and 1940s might have advice that's just as relevant today because there's a core piece there of stuff that just hasn't changed over the course of time.
Rich: Yeah. I think that that's correct, and that's not to cast dispersions on some of the new kind of developments that are occurring because it's all good. But I think if you're looking... For example, if you think the solution to what ails you is to get your microbiome tested and then learn all about what's wrong with your microbiome, that's helpful. That's great. But also on some level it's kind of a distraction. It's like,'Oh, here's a thing that I can buy. And here's the thing that I can do. And I can immerse myself in this little journey with this thing'. Meanwhile, I'm eating at McDonald's and I'm staying up till two in the morning, watching Dancing with the Stars reruns or whatever. I think you have to fundamentally have your priorities in check about the basic aspects of what it is to live well, which is basically to eat right. Move your body, get good sleep, stay hydrated, things that haven't changed in hundreds of years.
Brad: Yeah, I know this might not go over really well with parts of your audience because in Silicon Valley especially, I think that there's this inclination to try to science our way into immortality, or at least to extend life, and I just laugh every single time I hear about some new supplement on the market that is going to boost your mitochondria, and the individuals that are taking the supplement don't exercise, when we know that exercise boosts your mitochondria better than any supplement. You know, there's a very, very popular study from the sixties, the Barlow health study, and what he found is it's really five basic behaviors can add up to 10 to 20 years of your life and it's don't smoke, and if you do smoke, get help quitting. Like Rich said, move, keep your BMI under 30, which means don't become obese. That goes with moving. Don't over- drink. So for men, it's two drinks a day. For women, it's one drink a day. And then stay connected and have a sense of belonging. And it's interesting because if I do an inventory of my own life, I don't always shoot five for five, right? I work from home. Sometimes I feel lonely. So these things sound really easy, but they can be pretty hard to do.
Rich: I would echo that.
Dave: Love it. It's always simple, but it's simple, not easy, right? The advice is simple. Most people know it, it's right there, but most people are just... They want the hack. So that's why there is a new article out about some pill you could take or some diet you could go on. That's where that comes from for sure.
Brad: These things could work. I don't think that Rich and I are anti- science, and I think that we should continue to explore these things. Like shit, maybe the microbiome will unlock five years of vitality and health. But I just think that the drum that still needs to be beat are around nailing the basics because enough people don't nail the basics. Like I said, that sense of belonging, especially, I think that social media and productivity, getting back to your first question about why is wellness having a moment? I think another reason is a lot of people are suffering with mental health issues that come from a degradation of community, and that's kind of the gift and the curse of being so easily connected, right? Because now we can talk online or email instead of what was once an in- person interaction. I mean, I haven't tested this and I haven't seen science, but I wonder if that's not at play too.
Dave: All right. So I want to transition to a little lighter topic, which is... You guys are... You might not know this, or maybe you know this, but you're both very sneaky marketers, and I don't know if you've ever thought of it that way, but I think of Rich, for example... You're everywhere. Brad, you had a book out last year that blew up. New York times articles. You guys are both everywhere, but I don't think either of you... Neither of you set out to like,'I'm going to market the shit out of this thing that I'm doing', or'I'm going to become this brand'. Did you think that way or how did this whole thing happen? Like Rich for you, maybe start there.
Rich: Yeah, I have no marketing background whatsoever. No strategy behind anything that I've done. I will say in all fairness, when Finding Ultra came out in 2012, nobody really knew who I was outside of kind of insular world of triathlon. There were a couple of media pieces about me, but the mainstream, there was no mainstream awareness. So I realized and understood that if I didn't put everything I had into pushing this book out into the world, that it would just come and go and I would be forced to have to go back and continue to practice law, which is something I very much did not want to do.
Dave: There's your forcing function.
Rich: I made it my mission to... Basically a full- time job of trying to get this... Birth this book into the world and like, making spreadsheets of everybody I could contact and would do an interview with anybody who would talk to me and just turned over every rock in order to get it out there. And it's not it was a New York Times bestselling book, it wasn't. It was a slow burn of developing awareness. But I learned a lot about how to kind of launch a product. I made a lot of mistakes and from what I learned it was instructive when the cookbook The Plantpower Way came out several years later, and the podcast really was just an opportunity to continue the conversation that I began with the book. And again, I didn't whiteboard this is what I'm going to do, and this is the next chapter of my thing. It was just turning a microphone on and saying, this is fun, maybe I'll do a couple of these episodes. I had no idea that it would turn into this thing. And in terms of how it's been marketed I just... My marching order is create great content. And I share it on my social media sites, but beyond that I don't do anything else. Just create something great and take care of the people that are already tuning into your wavelength and make sure that they're happy. Spend less time trying to grow what you're doing, and more time really serving the people that are already interested in what you're doing and trust that over time, if you're consistent and you continue to deliver on the promise of great content that the audience will develop. That's kind of what I've been doing. I think perhaps I could be larger or doing more if I understood marketing better, but I feel good about the fact that I'm not out there trying to trick people or create click bait headlines or do lame giveaways to try to entice people to subscribe to something that otherwise they might not be interested in. And just focusing on like, how can I have the most amazing conversation with this person? And then present it in an artistic or aesthetically pleasing way. I spent a lot of time on the visual aspect of the work that I do cause I think that's important. And I think it's a differentiator from... It's something that helps set my podcast and the work that I do kind of apart from some of the other people out there.
Dave: I think one of the key threads about all this stuff is, especially from a... If you look at all the things that are popular, most things are popular tend to have a movement. There's always some element, especially today, people are more skeptical than ever. There's some element of authenticity. And I think that's what plays into your stuff so well, which is like... You're not a marketer trying to peddle books or peddle some advice. It's these long form conversations that feel like I'm in my car driving to Vermont and I feel like I'm hanging out at your place talking to somebody or listening in on the conversation. I think that the best channels today and whether you're writing a book or creating a business or whatever, they all have that element of authenticity. This is a real person talking about real stuff with somebody else behind the scenes. It's not a hack, it's, nobody's trying to game any system to try to get you to go and buy something immediately after.
Rich: Yeah, and I think that's accurate and correct. I think the word authenticity, the word authentic is getting bastardized and it's been so co- opted that it almost feels a nasty word now because it's a word, it's an idea, it's an ethos that brands are trying to manufacturer. And if... You know, something that's truly authentic cannot be manufactured by its very definition. And so authenticity is very important to what I do, but not because I'm trying to... I'm putting energy into trying to create authenticity. I'm trying to actually avoid being distracted by externalities that would drive my content and what I'm doing away from just being what is fundamentally consistent with my personality.
Dave: Brad, you were going to say something? You feel the same way?
Brad: I do. I think that it starts with a good product, and the only thing that I would add to what Rich said is that I don't think of marketing as separate from the core of what I do. It's just all what I do. So when I'm on Twitter, I do my best to compose really high quality tweets. I often use that actually as a testing ground for sentences that will appear in articles and books. So I think that there's a trap of thinking of marketing is separate from the work or the skill to optimize, and there are people that are marketers first. I just think of myself as a writer and someone that's privileged to play in this world of ideas, and every time I offer an idea that is my marketing, but that's also the core of what I'm doing. I mean, in marketing lingo, maybe it's called content marketing, but again I don't ever use the word marketing. I don't really think of anything I do as marketing. It's just having these interesting conversations with people, writing about them and then doing what I can to share those ideas.
Dave: Love it. I love the idea of... It's such a good way to test, just sharing the stuff that you're already sharing. Oh, that... People really interested in that thing that I said, maybe that's an article that I could write. Maybe that's a podcast episode that I could have. All right. So I want to... We're going to wrap up in a little bit, but just a couple of questions about you guys more personally. What are your morning routines and evening routines? I've seen videos, I've seen pictures from you both getting up at ridiculous early hours. I always see Rich the lighting the tea kettle. So I'm just interested in sharing your latest... I know they're always evolving, what your latest morning routine and evening routine right now.
Rich: Great question. Go ahead Brad. You can answer first. Go for it.
Brad: Well, I'm not sleeping on my roof in a tent Rich. So yours... We'll let you close out. I don't know if you're still doing that, we'll find in a second. Anyways, so yeah, my morning routine is as follows: when I wake up, my brain is just already churning it. I pop out of bed and that's when I can do my highest quality work. So I don't try to work against that or put that to sleep. So if anything, I add fuel to the fire. So I make a pot of coffee, write down three things that I'm grateful for in a gratitude journal while the coffee's brewing, and then I put in between an hour and two hours of really deep focus work. So that's when I'll edit copy that I wrote the other day, or perhaps even just write in the morning. So it's the most important work of the day I do in that hour. Again, partially because I'm not going to be distracted, but more so that's just when I can really feel like I'm on my game. Then I'll meditate for 20 minutes. It's almost like coming off of that deep focus work and allowing me to just clear my mind for the rest of the day. I wake up early too. I wake up like 5: 30. So this is at 7: 30 to eight. And then I'll do some sort of physical practice, generally tends to be running, sometimes running and resistance training. And that'll take about 90 minutes and that takes me to 9: 30. So that's my morning. And then evening something that I've just started doing over the last really like month or two months is when my wife comes home from work... I work from home, she doesn't. When she comes home, I put my phone in the other room and it stays there until the morning. And that's really been the only quote unquote routine. Other than that, things just kind of play out as they go. But I really try to disconnect. That tends to be around 7: 00 PM through the next morning.
Dave: My skin is crawling just thinking about that. And it's not good.
Brad: Well no it's interesting. This is actually a topic that I've discussed with David Cancel offline, is... You actually like... I feel some anxiety still. And I have to sit with that urge to check my phone. And often I realize the anxiety is just there because I'm so habitually used to checking it. It's not I'm anxious because I'm waiting for an email or there's something important happening in my life. It's just, I've become so used to scrolling and checking that it feels like if I don't, there's this emptiness, right? I just have to sit with myself and as uncomfortable as that is, I think it's pretty important to be okay with that. I don't know.
Dave: No, I love it. You should have a baby and then you won't have a choice either. I love it. I'll have to... Brad, I'll have to follow up with you separately. You can share with me the secrets of your sessions with him. Cause it's been amazing. So Rich, what about you?
Rich: So it's kind of amazing how similar my morning routine is to Brad's, but I would enter with the caveat that I have four kids, and also my nephew lives with me and every day is different and there's a lot of chaos in my house and there's a lot of people with all different kinds of needs that I need to attend to. So I don't always get to do what I want to do.
Dave: That's an important piece though, right? To be comfortable and like, you have a routine, but you're also willing to accept life and still get your stuff in if it doesn't fit perfectly in that morning.
Rich: Yeah. So as a control freak, I want to control my environment all the time and I don't always get to do that. Now you know, my friend Neil Strauss would say, well, you actually do have a choice. If it's important enough to you, you can make it a priority and do that. But, then it becomes a function for me at least. Like all right, well, I can do that, but then I'm an asshole. So what's more important? I can be a selfish asshole and say, well, I need this time. But then I don't get to go to the event at my daughter's school or things like that, right? So, I have to be a little bit more flexible and open- minded, but I would say that my morning routine begins with a prioritization on sleep. Like, getting seven to eight hours of sleep is absolutely critical for me, and again, it's something that doesn't always happen. Last night, I was at an event, I didn't get to bed until 11: 30, and you know, at my age with every increasing year, I'm 51 right now. It's really hard to... If I'm up late, I still wake up early. You know, I can't... It's not like I can sleep in, even if I want to. So I'll get five or six hours of sleep instead of seven or eight, and I can feel the difference. I don't feel as good. But I tend to wake up... Yeah, I will post... I go through jonts where I'm up at like four or 4: 30. They don't tend to last more than a couple of weeks. I would say in the grand scheme of things, I'm probably getting up between five and six. And sometimes, if I really need to sleep, I allow myself to sleep in until seven or 7: 30. So again, every day is different, but as soon as I wake up it's tea or coffee, not too much but a cup or two, and then right to the page. Right now, I'm hashing out a new book, so it's a lot of freeform writing for probably two hours on average of just getting my thoughts down in long form, in longhand, writing in a journal. When I'm not actively trying to crack a book or something like that, I will do morning pages, like journaling from The Artist's Way. But some form of writing is very important for me to take care of first thing. I am a morning person. That's when the creative ideas flow and I need to leverage that period of time for the work that I do. And that's... Don't look at your phone, don't check whatever, you just go straight to the page. And then when that's done, 20 minutes of meditation usually, although I can be inconsistent with that if... Depending upon what I have to do that day. And then I train and I go out, like today, I had a two and a half hour bike. So I did my writing. I did all that. And then I went out and trained. And as soon as I was finished, it was time to do this podcast. And then I got a bunch of other stuff to do today. So my training sessions are probably a little bit longer than Brad's on average, which makes it tough for me to do all the things that I want to get done every single day, like with managing the podcast and the like. And again, every day is different. So in terms of the evening, I really... If I have my way I'm in bed at nine o'clock and I will end the day with putting my phone away an hour or two before lights out, then I'll have some magnesium tea before I go to bed, which helps me kind of calm down and settle myself. I don't really have any trouble falling asleep. So it's pretty basic. There's nothing super exotic about that, except for the fact that I do sleep in a tent, and sleep in a tent on the roof of my house. I've been doing this for a little over a year at this point, and it's a longer discussion as to the why's, but I really do struggle with sleeping soundly. And I found that when we would... We have a flat roof at our house and in the summer months, we'd sleep outside with my kids. And I would just wake up feeling amazing. I would just sleep so much better in the cool dry air than I do indoors with air conditioning or heat. And so that was kind of the original impetus because my wife likes the room warm and I like it cold and it was creating tension in our relationship. So either she wouldn't sleep great or I wouldn't sleep great, and I was like, fuck it. I'm getting a tent. And I started sleeping in a tent. She's like, all right, knock yourself out. And I just, the quality of my sleep was 10x immediately. And I've just never looked back from that. And I don't sleep in it every night, but I would say nine out of 10 nights I sleep in the tent. And it really has enhanced the quality of my sleep. I like sleeping in the cold air, and I think on top of that, it's kind of a cool stoic practice. It reminds me that I don't need that much. If everything went to shit and went away and all I have is a sleeping bag and a tent, I would be okay because I have a lot right now and I have a great life and I'm choosing to sleep in a tent. So it's kind of an interesting experiment in non- attachment that I've been enjoying.
Dave: I love it. Well, as you said I think it's good, cause you said you don't have anything exotic other than sleeping in a tent. So I love it. That's a perfect way to end. I know you guys, like you said, you got a lot to get done the rest of the day, so I appreciate it. Make sure you go and if you liked this episode, go and holler at Brad on Twitter @ BStulberg and Rich Roll @ richroll, and do yourself a favor and go subscribe to Rich's podcast definitely. We've learned a lot. Thank you guys for coming on. Appreciate it. Have an awesome rest of the week.