#138: The 3 Types of Role Models Everyone Needs In Their Career
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Oh, that good old coffee.
Speaker 1: It's good?
Speaker 2: Mm- hmm( affirmative).
Speaker 1: We need to upgrade the studio.
Speaker 2: We do. We were just talking about that.
Speaker 1: We've been talking about this for a long time.
Speaker 2: And no action.
Speaker 1: We need books, we need murals, we need fan mail.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm afraid this doesn't show the true character of who we are.
Speaker 1: No, I feel like we're in... Your basement would be nicer than this. We're in my basement. If I had a basement this is what it would look like.
Speaker 2: crosstalk If you had a basement. What's going on? What are we talking about?
Speaker 1: Sorry. So you sent me this message about anti- role models.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Okay? It hit me, role models is one of the most important things that we talk about on this podcast, on this show, it's more than a podcast to me. You talked about anti- role models. I thought this would be a good opportunity to talk about anti- role models, but actually let's do a full episode on role models. And let's call this the three types of role models everybody needs in their career. I want to unpack each role model.
Speaker 2: crosstalk Okay. I like it. The nephew had a lot of notes.
Speaker 1: I've got notes. So we're getting a system down now where I keep this doc as we do the show. And so, if there's things that you say, or we say, or whatever, I'd mark it down as a clip, so then the video crew knows like," Oh, pull it out." So then Dan or Gonz whoever doesn't have to listen for 30 minutes to then pick out the good clip.
Speaker 2: Ooh, look at that. Saving you time. crosstalk
Speaker 1: No, no. I had this conversation with Dan. Shout- out Young Dan.
Speaker 2: crosstalk Okay. Young Dan, Young Young Dan.
Speaker 1: Young Dan, the other day, I said," Look, I want to pull out the clips and I want to write the headlines. But if you have the mindset of I'm going to do this for you, this is your job. You're never going to learn it. So I'm going to show you some of the things that I think would be good clips and headlines, but I want you to take this and then take it with it." So that's how we got the clips. crosstalk So if you go" He sent me this great clip today," which is one that we wrote down last time, which is the talent hiring, about management or whatever the heck it was.
Speaker 2: How to spot your future leaders.
Speaker 1: How to spot your future leaders, right. So I wrote that, and gave that one to him, now he knows crosstalk.
Speaker 2: That one we should have charged for.
Speaker 1: We should have charged, that was too good. I'm going to post that one later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, behind the paywall. Just kidding crosstalk.
Speaker 1: So this episode is about role models, I want to talk about three of them. Actually, I want you to do most of the talking. I do what I do, which is interview you. Okay. So let's talk about role models. Number one, let's talk about role models in general. The good kind, right? I think this is the mistake that most people make, which is everybody wants role models, but they say," DC, I want you to be my role model."
Speaker 2: No, sorry.
Speaker 1: "When can we get coffee? When can I, when can we get lunch?" Right. And you're never going to have a time. So I think the biggest mistake people make with role models, we should talk about why you need them first.
Speaker 2: Yes. I was going to ask you, but why do we need role models? And how did you come to learn about the role models?
Speaker 1: crosstalk Okay, let me answer this question in a couple different ways. One of them is how I would have answered it a couple of years ago, which is" Well, because you need to have people to look up to, right?" What you've helped me figure out is that actually the role models, there's really two reasons. One of them is so you can see what's possible.
Speaker 2: Yes. Okay crosstalk.
Speaker 1: Right? You talked about this story a lot where when you were growing up, you didn't know you were in Queens, you dropped out of college, you didn't know XYZ was possible, right? Now your kids know things that are possible that you did not know, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have no Googles, nothing.
Speaker 1: crosstalk No Googles, none of that stuff. The second one though, this actually been the most powerful one for me, is to learn what works or doesn't work from other people, right? Oh my God. We've never done an event, we got to do our first event here at Drift. I could figure out how to do it, or I could go watch videos and learn from people who have thrown great events and then take that and learn what was good and what was not good.
Speaker 2: All great stuff. It all comes down to-
Speaker 1: What did I miss?
Speaker 2: You didn't miss anything there, but I'm going to take it up one level and say the reason that role models and modeling is important is because we are in a constant fight, all of us, with our own egos. And we get to a certain age once we become an adult, and we start to think that we want to invent everything, we want to create stuff, we want everything from scratch. We don't want to do the things that have been done before. We don't want to listen to our parents and Vice because what do they know? And then you hit a certain level of maturity, then you look back and you're like," Wow. There was so many things that I had to learn the hard way that I could've learned the easy way, but my ego got in the way." And so what we're all about is short- cutting that, and that's where role models come in because we all have this constant. You have the young, red- headed little daughter, follow the IG.
Speaker 1: Shout- out to Annie if you're listening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to check out Annie, check out [Dave Gerheart's 00:04:07] IG, that's all that's on there, 24/7.
Speaker 1: That's it, I want the followers. So I post Annie only.
Speaker 2: If you look at Annie, how does Annie learn how to walk? Annie learns how to walk by trial and error, by looking, observing around her, by modeling and seeing what other people are doing. That's how she learns so many of the things that she does, is by modeling, right? And she doesn't learn how to walk by reading a book. No one has to give her instructions on how to learn to walk. She's modeling behavior that she sees in others, and she's emulating. That's where modeling comes in. So we all model, but we get up to a point in life where we stop modeling and start being stubborn. And then we figure out that finally, the shortcut is to model, right? The thing that we knew all along. And so I never knew, no one ever told me about role models or I didn't even know what that was. And now I can see," Wow, we modeled so many things in life." Let's take a deliberate framework approach, a systematic approach to learning by using role models.
Speaker 1: I love that. So last year, back in the spring, I think it was March, April. Aleus and I were lucky enough to meet with the CMO of Facebook in his office. An incredible experience. We're like," What do we ask this guy?" Aleus said before the meeting, he's like," Do you have questions? You better get some questions." I'm like," Okay." So we said to him," What are the traits of the best marketers?" And he said," the best marketers learn faster than everybody else." Insert marketer for whatever job you are. That's why role models are so important, if you can learn faster than everybody else, you're going to be more successful. Because if you learn faster, you can put the new ideas into play faster. You can learn what didn't work faster. You can avoid the mistakes faster. So I thought about that line a lot since then, which is I think true in so many different roles.
Speaker 2: Wow. I love that. One of the hard things and figuring all this out is identifying who would be a good role model. Now there's listening to my uncle Warren Buffet. Again, recently I listen to him on repeat, he's giving this talk at, I forgot the school was in California, old talk on YouTube. And he was saying that his mentor taught him this lesson, right? And he uses it all the time when he talks to students. And he's trying to teach them on how to select, how to find the right fit in a person. And he said, imagine this experiment, imagine where Dave went to college. If you were to look into his class or where he went to high school, and he would say," Dave, you can pick one person in this class who you can get 10% of their earnings of whatever money they make for the rest of the lives forever." But you could only choose one person. How would you choose that person? And I was going to shortcut it for you, what Warren says and his mentor told him was that it's never going to be based on tangibles. It's not going to be the captain of the football team that you're going to choose. It's not going to be that person who had all the straight A's in class. It's going to be someone that stands out to you because of their intangibles. Something that's intangible that you can't put your finger on something that stands out that's weird, that's special about this person, and they stand out. And so the reason I bring this up today, and I was recording that little rant for a little secret project I'm working on, I'll tell the people about that little bit more of that later, but that is important in this, what we're talking about, which is selecting your role model. So when your selecting for your role models, you don't only want to look at their quantifiable things. You want to do what Warren Buffet said, you want to look beyond that and look for the intangibles. What is the thing that makes them special in selecting that role model?
Speaker 1: I love that. There's a thousand articles and episode just from this alone.
Speaker 2: Right here, right here crosstalk.
Speaker 1: Another thing I forget what book this was from. We read this book. Might've been Tools of Titans, but Tim Ferriss talks about, I think, who was he, admiral? Was it McChrystal or McRaven was one of those guys, right?
Speaker 2: McChrystal.
Speaker 1: McChrystal, shout out to you, Stanley McChrystal. I think he's been in the news lately. Here's his framework for picking role models. You want three. Number one is find somebody who's doing the same thing you're doing today because that becomes your peer group/ therapy. Right? Number two is find someone who's one level ahead of you, so you can kind of see the map to get to the next level, and then find somebody who's multiple levels ahead of you, right? So then you can see what it's going to take, what the elite levels look like. I like that as well.
Speaker 2: That's a great frame.
Speaker 1: crosstalk Very simple, right? You need three and here's the three. Okay. That's role models. Those are the good kind. You also taught me about reverse role models. Can you re- bring the lesson of reverse role models to light?
Speaker 2: We did an episode on this a long time ago and it was, I had sent TG out. He had been invited to some-
Speaker 1: This is one of my favorite stories.
Speaker 2: ...Some dinner, some event, some whatever. And he was nervous about going. He didn't want to go, something like that. And so I was pushing him to go and I said," It's important you go to this thing." And I think maybe I was invited too, and then I did attend.
Speaker 1: crosstalk This is how I came up a little bit, which is these people in early days, Drift people invite DC to all this stuff, he says, he can't go, I get to go, and it's amazing. And so this example was-
Speaker 2: A CMO luncheon.
Speaker 1: crosstalk There a group of all, it was a CMO dinner at some fancy restaurant in Cambridge, not showing up in my Nike's and a backpack and walking in-
Speaker 2: Yeah, and his hoodie.
Speaker 1: And I'm like," Are you sure you want me to go to this?" And he was like," Yeah, I want you to go." And I was like- crosstalk
Speaker 2: But I didn't tell him why. So I was just like," You need to go to this thing." So he went, he came back. This was our first office, I remember. And so I was asking," What did he think about that dinner?" So I didn't tell him anything else. And he was saying some stuff about it, but I could tell that he didn't really want to tell me what was on his mind. And then I finally said," Hey, the reason I sent you to that is because I wanted you to look at reverse role models. Those are all CMOs there, all muckety mucks, fancy dinners and all that stuff, fancy everything, but how much they know?" And he was like," They didn't know that much." Or they didn't know that much more, I should say, all accomplished people. And I said," That's a reverse role model." That is what you want to look at. You wanted to see what it takes to get to that level. But you also wanted to see how you want to be different from that group. Because that's not- crosstalk
Speaker 1: Yeah. That was such an unlocking thing, because you go there, you think you're going to be in a different league and you realize, wait a second, this isn't that different. This isn't that crazy, yeah, they definitely know more, they've had more experience, but it's not that crazy, right? It's like, if you play basketball, you get into a pickup game with a bunch of NBA players and you're like," Okay, I can hang, right?" It's some level of that. And so in my notes, I put reverse role models is one of the things to have to help you overcome. Everybody has this impostor syndrome. I think reverse role models is one of the things that helps you figure out what's possible.
Speaker 2: Because you need contrast, you always need to have contrast. You have to understand what does great look like, and what does good look like, and what does not good look like?
Speaker 1: It's also, I think one of the reasons why we love talking about and reading founder stories is because you realize," Oh, this person didn't have much and look at what they did, and so therefore you can do it." That's number two. Number three is the new one. Do you remember the new one? Anti- role models? What is the anti-role model? Anti- role models is about showing you what not to do, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Mm-hmm(affirmative). So the anti- role models, which is a new one, this is the third type. Unlocking...
Speaker 1: We needed it, the rules of threes!
Speaker 2: Sometimes I think just give too much. Give too much away. I don't know, some of this we've got to teach you to put a paywall behind this part.
Speaker 3: This should be paid. The rest of this podcast is going to be$6. 99, subscription.
Speaker 2: Free all the time, but I'll give you the anti- role model because I love the peoples.
Speaker 1: crosstalk Free. Okay. What's an anti-role model? Okay.
Speaker 2: So the anti- role models is, you want to know what behaviors don't lead. This is kind of inversion. This is basically Charlie Munger's inversion. So Charlie Munger's inversion, what he says is," Look, if you have a goal in mind, do you want to get to this?" G2 wants to be some muckety- muck big time. If you want to be the muckety- muck, what you want to do is invert and say not what will it take for me to be a muckety- muck? Or what do you want to be G2? World famous director?
Speaker 1: Casey Neistat.
Speaker 2: Casey Neistat. He wants to be Casey Neistat. So instead of saying," what are the steps that I need to do," because those are hard to predict to be Casey Neistat, You say the opposite. You invert. You say," What are the things that if I do, I know I will definitely never be Casey Neistat?" And then you go down that list, and then you can basically come out with a list of things that you should never do, never pursue because they will not relead you to your goal. And so the anti- role model is this. Okay, find the people who are exhibiting the traits that never lead to the thing that you want, right? So people who may say in this case, let's say you wanted to be Casey Neistat. People who may tell you for years that they want to be Casey Neistat, but they've never made any progression towards it. And so you take that group of people, create this anti- role model group and say, what is in common with those people? I'd say the universal one that Charlie Munger says always, always is going to be in the anti- role model when you invert is laziness and sloth, right? If you don't put in any work, you're just a sloth. I think he calls it something else, but it's-
Speaker 1: crosstalk I love that, because that gives you somewhere to build, right? So in the Casey Neistat example it's like," Casey was not lazy. He was not a sloth. He created 10 videos every single week."
Speaker 2: inaudible for permission.
Speaker 1: Yep. You can start to make this little recipe book of, okay, here are the guardrails, right? One of the things that I liked that you do is when we try to solve a problem, you go up on the whiteboard and you write the guardrails, right.? And this is almost like anti- role models is the guardrails.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Speaker 1: We talked about this with pricing a lot, right? When we're creating new pricing, you always write, has to be simple, has to be customer friendly. And so that then gives you some framework to how you're going to write out the pricing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's so many things in the Casey Neistat example, like with the young G2 being a Casey Neistat that most people would fall into. What are the things that Casey Neistat doesn't do? He doesn't obsess around equipment, right? He doesn't care. He doesn't care. He often makes it a point to say the equipment doesn't matter, right? Like he doesn't care about how he looks or how he comes across, right? There's all these things that usual people who want to do that kind of work, G2 is not one of these people, but one of those people get caught up in equipment, caught up in the way that they look, not wanting to do anything embarrassing. Wait for them to be selected into some fancy whatever.
Speaker 1: Wait for ideas. He has ideas. He could make a video about a notebook. It could be anything.
Speaker 2: And it's all about storytelling, right? Those are the things that are correlated with it.
Speaker 1: Oh, and you got there all the way because of inversion.
Speaker 2: Yes. Inversion and the anti- role models. So G2, we're giving you too much stuff. We're educating the young G2 too much.
Speaker 1: That's it. Just like that. We running late today. It's because of me, sorry about that.
Speaker 2: crosstalk We're running late, so I need six star review. We still have a shortage, I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 1: crosstalk We need six star reviews. Look, this could be your Thanksgiving call to action, right?
Speaker 2: Some days I wake up and I'm like," Just, let's just wrap up the podcast. Cause I can't get a six star review."
Speaker 1: Let's retire it!
Speaker 2: Let's just retire. G2, we're going to shut down.
Speaker 1: crosstalk We'll go out on top. Actually, wouldn't be on top because we don't get reviews anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I don't get it. There's no reviews anymore.
Speaker 1: Are your apps broken?
Speaker 2: Yeah. The app is broken in the Apple App Store. We're going to have to mix it up. We give, give, give, give, give, give, give. I don't want to ask, but maybe a six star review soon.
Speaker 1: Please.
Speaker 2: Please? All right.
Speaker 1: Happy Thanksgiving everybody.
Speaker 2: crosstalk Happy Thanksgiving, just joking with everyone. Seeking wisdom is going nowhere. Six star reviews, only. See you.
Speaker 1: See you. Peace.