#Build 6: How to Hire Diverse Product Management Teams w/ Pratima Arora
#Build 6: How to Hire Diverse Product Management Teams w/ Pratima Arora
Maggie: What's up. Welcome to Build on seeking wisdom. This is Maggie as always here to dig up and share the absolute best in secrets in building and scaling products and product teams. And I'm really excited because today I have an absolute OG in the product world, Pratima Arora. She's the head of product at Confluence. She spent a bunch of years at Salesforce, started off at Intuit. Basically someone who has seen a lot happen in the world of SAS. So welcome. I'm so excited to have you.
Pratima: Thank you, Maggie. Super pumped to be here.
Maggie: Awesome. So I just want to start quickly with, you started as a software engineer back in the day, and now you're the head of products at Confluence. Like how did you get here? How did you get started and like what made you switch to product in the first place?
Pratima: Sure, yeah. I'll go even a little bit further in my journey. I grew up as a geek at heart, loved doing math puzzles, started coding very early on and was something about solving problems that always resonated with me. I started my career early as a software engineer at Intuit, as you mentioned. Was my first job out of college. And it was fascinating because my first week and one of the onboarding exercises was for us to literally follow me home or follow a customer home. And I'm going to totally date myself here. But there used to be a store called Circuit City that existed at that time, if anybody remembers and we didn't have SAS as much. This is gosh, 18 years ago and it was shrink wrap software. So people would buy to store and buy a CD and take it home and install it. And this is like the pure, as you can get to customer discovery. We would stand behind those boxes of shelves in Circuit City. And then we'll see people come and pick up those boxes. And then once they were ready to check out, we would literally follow them and said, Hey, tap on the shoulder. We saw you just going to buy this. Can we come see how you're experiencing it and we'll pay you a hundred bucks. And this was QuickBooks. And some people would absolutely think we were freaks and say no. And some people would let us come. And this is small businesses, a mom and pops in their bedrooms, garages, a little creepy. But we orderly follow them, or drive behind them, get to their little small business, what they had and see them actually open the box to install the CD. And how did they get onboarded and really use the product was mostly around observation and very few questioning. We'll ask them to think out loud, but it just opened my mind and blew my mind around how people use your software or what you build in the room. And I was just so fascinated with that world that when... I actually made me become a better engineer because I would go back and tell my product manager, I can actually solve this better because I know what the problem is. Your spec is great, but this is going to be faster solution. And I thought I could solve problems at a more meaningful way. And I loved interacting with customers and I was solving problems but at a different level. And I thought I could get that massive scale by being in product. That was my journey into the product. Didn't get my first job at Intuit actually. When I applied for it lasted to an MBA from Howard. And I actually had the courage to ask why and my feedback from my mentor and the man in hiring manager would say that I didn't talk enough. Boy ever work on that one.
Maggie: But this was for your first engineering job or product job?
Pratima: My first product job. crosstalk I was already there. I got a mentor and I was wanting to turn into product. So I found all sorts of projects to work on as a product manager on my side, on top of my engineering job. And then when the position opened up, I applied for it within Intuit and lost it to a marketing person. It was an entry level PM job who had an MBA. And also, I guess, talked more than I did.
Maggie: As a Harvard MBA myself, I apologize for us. We do talk a lot. But it sounds like everything worked out.
Pratima: Everything worked out, but the biggest thing, the biggest learning out of that, and then if people are listening, is I caught the courage to ask, right? And it was not too bad because it was internal. So I had the opportunity to ask them. I'm so glad I did because it was hard. And I was like, oh my God, this is going to be the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. It wasn't. But at that point it felt like just going and saying, Hey, why did I not get the job? And what was missing was so bigger learning. And just getting feedback. Things like, Hey, you were holding back or didn't share your opinions as much. And I was a woman and an engineer who had to be in that was double gammy and had to be a hundred percent sure to speak up my mind. And I think that has changed over time. We don't need to check all the boxes for a lot of things in our life. And I think all of us fall in that category sometimes. Oh my God, I need to be perfect. Or I need to know everything. I got my first job outside Intuit at SAP. It was a little startup actually that Shai Agassi, who ended up building the car company, if anybody knows that. He was running a little startup in Palo Alto office and we were 20 people. And I was one of the first PM's on that job. And we launched the beta and it was great experience. It was like we had the funding and I've had a small team, a lot of engineering in Tel Aviv. And we launch the beta, was doing everything possible, but it's odd. I had kind of a little mini startup experience in a big company. And then he left and they killed our project, which was a bummer. But I got such a breadth of product experience from taking a product from inception all the way to beta and getting customers on it. It was fascinating. I gave myself a few more months at SAP. SAP was not right for me. And I ended up joining Salesforce. This was 10 years ago now.
Maggie: Yeah. So what was Salesforce like ten years ago? Because we all know it now is the huge incumbent in the space, but what was it like 10 years ago?
Pratima: It was this little tiny company. You will not imagine it was, right? So it was still 3000 people when I joined. It had gone IPO a year before, so it was not like it was a startup, right? But the fascinating thing that people don't know about Salesforce is only 10% of people and budget goes to R& D. Only 10%. It's a software company, but only 10% goes to R& D. So 90% of the company, who ask me what it is, it sales, marketing, support and all the other finance and other functions. So we had a very lean team. So the whole R& D team that included ops as in dev ops maintaining servers. Because we own, host our own cloud was 300 people.
Maggie: For the whole... For all of Salesforce, 300 people.
Pratima: All of Salesforce, 300 people in R&D. Everything. And that included not only engineering dev ops too. So I think engineering team was like less than 175 or 200. And we were less than 20 PMs. And when I joined, we were like less of handful of PMs on sales cloud. And so was one of the few, I think, three or four PMs on sales cloud when I started. And then we also became a little smaller when we started investing in the chat or if you know Salesforce went through the big one. So I was one of the few app PMs on the team. Gosh, 10 years ago. I knew everybody on the product management team, probably on the development team too. And we all fit in one building, on one market on three floors, the R&D did. And we were quite nimble. I think Salesforce has always been nimble on R& D. So we always had a small team making a big impact. And it was great experience to start there because saw like 10 X growth or nine X growth in nine years I was there. So that team went from... It was the overall company went from 3000 to 27, 000 when I left. And my team of three or four went from 30. I ended up hiring 20 myself probably out of that over the years. And we went from sales cloud because I was primarily on sales cloud. But Sales cloud also did the most... Because of the flagship product and had to be ahead of the market. So we ended up picking up some of the most innovative or the being the first people like leading the charge on those creative projects. So I ran mobile in 2010, when mobile had just gotten the scratch or it was just a thing only for consumer business. I ran that for two years before we said mobile should be for every team. Then I led the charge for lightning, which was redoing the user experience for sales cloud.
Maggie: Yeah. I mean, I wasn't going to bring up the user experience, but now that you bring it up.
Pratima: Oh no. And then the last one was Einstein where before I left, I had launched Sales cloud Einstein. That was a great nine years, but just the massive scale and growth and seeing a company ride that wave was amazing. And now I'm at actually Atlassian I ran Confluence and that was a big and an exciting shift because Atlassian is such a unique company in so many ways. Not a lot of people know about it, which is a fascinating. Atlassian products are known more than the company. If you think people would know Jira and Confluence and Trello versus the Atlassian brand. But it's a fascinating company when we think about, because it's... I think what attracted me to Atlassian was its mission and business model. And the mission was to really unleash the potential of every team through open work. And there are so many ways of achieving that and their business model was they do that without salespeople. So it was a totally polar opposite to Salesforce.
Maggie: Yeah. So is it much more R& D focused than Salesforce? Like what's the percentage shift? You said it was only 10% going to R&D, so what is it at Atlassian?
Pratima: So Atlassian is I think 35, 36% R& D versus 10%, so much more R& D focused. So it's fun. And it's actually a very product led company, I would say versus a sales led company, which was very fascinating. And just a little thing around Confluence. I don't know if you know about Confluence, are you a user of Confluence?
Maggie: Yes. We use Confluence here at Drift.
Pratima: Okay. So for people who don't know, because a lot of people don't know Confluence, it's this little workspace, open and living workspace where teams can come together, collaborate and really move their work forward. So, that was very fascinating. I haven't worked on a horizontal product that really helped all sorts of teams of different sizes and functions. And that was so fascinating about it. So that was my journey to Atlassian and now leading Confluence.
Maggie: So, that's amazing that you got to see that come from Salesforce. Scale from the size it was to the size it was when you left. And I think you mentioned before when we were chatting that you've also scaled up a team at Confluence as well. So like, what does it take to scale teams like that? And you hired 20 people at Salesforce at least the same amount of Confluence. How do you think about that and how do you go about that problem?
Pratima: Yeah, absolutely. I think we had talked previously, but I'll give a little bit. Confluence was originally based out of Sydney. Atlassian is a Sydney headquartered company. And one of the decisions and why did I end up being here in Bay area was they said, Hey, given the talent and the expertise, and also to be untapped the market in the Bay area. They decided to say, Hey, Confluence as a product should be based out of the Bay area. So we are based in Mountain View. And so they moved the product from Sydney and Confluence is a 15 year old product to Mountain View. Only 20% of the team came with it. And we had to hire the 80% of the team. So in last nine months I've been here almost 10, in the first six months I ended up hiring the whole product team from scratch. I had one person who came from Sydney.
Maggie: Yeah. How do you maintain the culture or did you even want to maintain the culture that the team had before? Was it a good chance to start sort of anew or is that something that you guys wanted to maintain?
Pratima: I think we absolutely wanted to maintain Atlassian's culture or Atlassian's values. I don't know if you've ever read them. One of the reasons I am at Atlassian is because of their values. They are unbelievably true and they kind of resonated with us, at least with me. And I'll just tell you too that I think about all the time is open company, no bullshit. And that's such an important thing as you think about such an important part of our culture. And the second one is don't fuck the customer, excuse my swear word. But that's actually in the values. So we didn't want to change those values. I think cultures evolve over time as company grows. But values don't. So we wanted to really keep the value, but make the culture which was true to us in the Mountain View office. So we were trying to find what was the right culture in the office, but also playing very nice with Atlassian values.
Maggie: Yeah that's interesting because I think we call them leadership principles, but we have the same sort of thing. And our first one is put the customer at the center of everything that you do. So it's interesting that it's sort of, you guys have a more creative way of saying that. But I think it's awesome just to hear that that sort of like being echoed across different companies. And I feel like I'm hearing more and more that values it's not just a thing that the HR team does, but it's like actually really core to how we operate. Which is really interesting and something that I don't know if you've seen sort of change over time in your career.
Pratima: No. I think if a company lands on the values that they are authentic and the founders and everybody really believes in, they can become an asset for lots of ways. Asset for hiring, asset for what you do in your daily lives. How do you make decisions. And also how do you treat your customers and treat each other. So I look at them and I think if you ask a lot of people when they'll come and get you on board. Some would be like, oh, I joined Atlassian because of its values and culture. So we hear that over and over again. So it's definitely an asset for us and they've done it really good. Atlassian has done an awesome job at maintaining them.
Maggie: So you were talking about how you scaled those teams. So how did you approach that hiring challenge?
Pratima: It was amazing opportunity for me because I was like, okay. I was like, I have a blank slate and what's the best way to hire a team from scratch and you don't get those opportunities. A lot of times you inherit a team or part of the team, and it's hard to really go in there and set the team the way you want it to. So one of my goals was to have a very diverse team and diversity, not in terms of just gender or race, but there are lots of other ways to think about diversity. Which I'm sure you've read in a lot of people's cognitive diversity. How do you bring people from different backgrounds, different strengths, in the way they think, in the experiences they have had and different walks of life, right? Like some people are really hungry and some people are really thoughtful, like where they are. And how do you balance the maturity of the team to some senior people, some junior people so that you have that really nice mix of maturity and mentorship also going while you thinking of the team. So, that was kind of my goal. So I was like, I really want to achieve diversity, but I also want to achieve diversity in multiple facets. Not just, just on a few parameters. So I'll tell you the results and then we'll go back to how did I approach it. So my team is 50% woman. I have PM's from color, from different parts of the country, not just white men or Asian men. Sometimes you see that a lot too in Bay area. And also people in different walks of their lives. We have some very senior people and some really people who are just starting their career in product management. People with analytical background, but also some people who have strengths in creativity and design thinking. So I can talk about two frameworks that I-
Maggie: Yeah. I want to know like how did you get them, right? Like what questions did you ask? Like, what I take back to our hiring process to use to credit, try to figure out how to get rid of my own biases when we're hiring. All that kind of stuff. Because it's not easy to do this.
Pratima: God, there's so many thoughts that are going in my mind. I can keep talking. I hope we have time. One of them was even starting at the hiring process, right? And then first is how do you hire those people. Second is how do you retain those people. And then third comes is how do you grow those people it comes with retention too. And then also saying is like, I keep hearing is it lip service that diverse teams are really better? Or what are the pros and cons of it? So lots of learnings in here. So let's talk about the hiring process because that's where it starts.
Pratima: So when you think about the hiring process and something you can actually do is the two tactical things you can do tomorrow if you were hiring for a PM. One is make sure that your job listing is actually neutral and is not biased. And we use a company called Textio, and what they do is we run all our job postings through them and they will tell you, and they'll flag the words that are not like not gender neutral or diverse, so you can just literally run it. And they would give you suggestions on how to make your job posting a bit more neutral and less biased. So we did that. That's the first thing we did. We made sure all our job postings had gone through that. And we have taken all the biases out. The second thing I did was the panel. I wanted to make sure... Because in my past life I had heard. And even sometimes even I hear it all the time that people will be like, oh, I actually didn't feel the connection with all the interviewers, right? So they'll be like, do I fit in this company, right? So one of the challenges is the panel who's interviewing for that job. How do you set that panel to be very diverse. And that means like, are you getting some obviously some gender, some women who are part of your interview panel. Let's just be very fair about it. Women don't come if five men interviewed them. They feel real... It's just not... So let's make that a little bit balanced panel. And the third one would be a... Not only just in terms of gender and race, but balance in terms of their functions and their backgrounds. If you wanted to hire somebody who can see, Hey, there's so much diversity, I fit in. A lot of times when you talk to people, definitely they're looking for their awesome opportunity. But at the end of the day, they need to feel excited or... If you spend more time at work living like wake up time at work than at home. And it's true. And I even have young kids, I feel like I spend more time at my work. So it really needs to be important in today's life to really have that connection and that sense of belonging.
Maggie: Right. So it's not just about making sure that you're evaluating for it, but also giving the candidate a chance to feel that on the panel that they're being interviewed by.
Pratima: Absolutely. And having them feel that like, by experiencing it because it's not lip service anymore. So I think those are the two tactical things you can do in the beginning of the process, right? So make sure your job postings are unbiased and make sure that your panel is diverse. And then once you are evaluating the candidate for product management, this is product management specific what I'll tell you. What we did was around diversity, or just even thinking about it. We have a VP of product, Joff Redfern, he's amazing. He actually worked at LinkedIn. He wrote little triangle and he runs PM craft here. And they're three, if you look at PM types of product managers and you can draw it on a triangle, just imagine it, visualize it. At the top of the triangle, there are GM skills. And when I say GM is general management, in terms of things like your business acumen. On one side of the triangle, you can put analytical skills. So you really need... Are you data driven?. Are you results oriented. Are you analytical. People come from different backgrounds there. And then the third aspect of a good product manager is artist, right? Are you creative, are you an artist. And if you... And a good product manager is somewhere in the middle, right? And has aspects and as you grow, you come more and more in the middle of that triangle. And your triangle become smaller. But in honesty, we all come from different strengths, right? Just because of who we are. And those are just our natural strengths. And how do you play on that?. So one thing to be aware of as you hiring or even thinking about people... And I mapped myself on that triangle. Where do I lie? Where am I?
Maggie: Yeah I'm sketching my triangle right now.
Pratima: Okay. Where do you lie? Tell me.
Maggie: I'm perfectly in the middle. Unicorn. The unicorn PM. Definitely.
Pratima: The single dot in the middle. If you had to choose two out of the three, which one would you choose?
Maggie: Oh man. I'd probably would have to put myself in between the GM and data, but I would want to be more like the artist.
Pratima: And I, to be honest, I am pretty much there too. I come from a... As I was saying, a math geek. And I knew that I had to balance a team with some creative artist people. Even if over the years I have learned to do design and I can sketch my way through it. But that's not my natural strength. And so when... I would even make my... When I was hiring, I would make the candidates do it. It was like, Hey, this is a triangle. Where would you put yourself? And yeah, it was fun exercise... Towards the end, when they've gone through the interview, I would do it with them because I was the hiring manager. And then the... Just to see where do they put themselves. And how do you think about your team and if you have strengths in all those three aspects of product management on your team. So I really use that framework to make sure... At one point, I think in the beginning we got too heavy on analytical and I actually rejected candidates who were analytical heavy. And I'm like, sorry your great, not the right fit for the team. But then I went with my recruiting team, as I'm looking for somebody more on the creative designer, diversion thinking. It's not creativity... Artist is great, but it's also brings in divergent thinking versus people who like to converge. So there's so many ways to think, but those were... That triangle really helped me figure out how do I want to... A simple framework to help me how did I want to hire product managers.
Maggie: So then once you got them in, how did you... You talked about retention and growth. How did you make sure you did that as well?
Pratima: I think we touched on that with the values a little bit on Atlassian. So let me evaluate on that... Oh, elaborate a little bit on that. So Atlassian has a unique value about, as I was saying, open company, no bullshit. But it also is really interesting when you think about when you bring a diverse team, they need to feel that they belong there, right? The sense of belonging and the sense of being able to bring your true, authentic self to work is so important. And I can't thank enough to Atlassian for being able to develop that and have that in this company. I'll tell you some tangible examples here because I think it sounds really fluffy. I think a foundation of that is being open and how do you really encourage people to be open. And how do you connect people who are like each other to each other so that you can see, Hey, this company has diversity people and openness actually fosters that. So a few things we do is we use. On Confluence is 100% open besides some of the legal documents and some of the M& A stuff that we don't want the rest of the company to see or get in trouble by seeing it. Everything else is open. So anybody can go and see what everybody is looking at. So you can see any function, there are no silos, right? 100% anybody can access anything. But little tiny things that help is we make everybody write a blog or we have a blogging culture or intro blog where people within their first few weeks have to introduce themselves and not work related. And they don't need to... Suppose to be not covering their resume, but personally introduce themselves at work. Like even in my exec ops meeting, I used a picture that I have used in my intro blog, where I talked about my kids. I have two young kids and that's who I am. I'm a mom. And I really wanted to let them know that I'm a mom. And that was so welcomed, to the credit... Mike who's one of the co- founders, he goes... He said, I suddenly felt connected to you. And that is encouraged. That is encouraged.
Maggie: But how do you keep people... So I love that idea of coming in and introducing yourself and bringing your whole self to work. But most of us come from different companies and they have different experiences. How do you keep people open, right? Because I think like you said, it sounds kind of fluffy and it feels really good. Like how do you keep that going when you're sort of in the trenches building and like things get a little tougher.
Pratima: A few thing is I think the culture reinforces themselves and has been leaders you need to become examples, right? And if you don't have... You lead by example in a lot of ways. I can give you an example. One of our leaders, who's based out of Austin, who runs HipChat and Stride. And he had a really tough time at his personal life at home. And he was so open about it at blogging, at work about, Hey, I'm taking nine months off and this is the reason why. And he leads the whole Austin office, right? So just being there and being able to lead by example. And then people follow. Like UX designer blogged about fighting cancer and returning to work seven months later after sick leave. That kind of things are suddenly brought up. A senior developer started blogging about being trans at work. And you can like a blog. We have almost 500 likes on that blog and people commenting and really opening up. So obviously you have to plant the seed and you have to keep planting the seed, right? Because it doesn't happen at one time I've done it and it's done. You have to continuously work on it. It's not one and done. It's not just intro blog and done. So I think it has to come a lot from the top. It has to come a lot from the culture and getting some of those ambassadors on your team who really think about that. The second tactical thing we do is nobody locks their documents. It's just not happens. We don't lock... and given Confluence is opened by default. Like, I don't know if... You've used it, right? You write a page is always open. You have to actually take steps to lock it.
Maggie: Yeah, we do the same thing. We have a culture of encouraging people to show your work and show your work really early in the process. And I that was hard for me when I came in. A culture before where I had to polish my work before I would put it out and here it sort of put it on the Wiki, share it immediately, share the draft, everything should always be open. And so that for me, that was a little bit of a weird and hard transition. But now that I'm used to working that way, I can't imagine going back because everything's just open and available and accessible, which I think makes it easier to get my work done.
Pratima: You got it. And you can build on top of each other's work. Like if we polished it and waste your three months and somebody poo- pooed on it or said, Hey, that was wrong. Why not get early feedback and build on top of each other's work.
Maggie: Yeah, exactly.
Pratima: It's so awesome if you do that. So going back Maggie to your attention, I think openness and bringing your authentic self is huge about retaining these people. I think diverse leaders attract diversity too. There is statistics done on it, right? And papers written on this. And this was true for me at Salesforce. I had more women on my team that any product team in Salesforce. And here, I think, especially as product managers, we have more power sometimes. And we think like we have ripple effect. We interact with so many functions. We are cross- functional, we are always interacting with different units of the business. So if you have a product team that's diverse, you suddenly have that ripple effect. I think we have more engineering, woman leaders in Confluence now who are really standing up and showing up to meetings and leading with example. Similarly in marketing and other functions. And I've seen more people of color. And that's just amazing to see that because just because our reach is higher... I won't say it in a different way, but just because we interact with more people, right?
Maggie: Yeah. That's a good point. I mean, you're right. I think a good PM is sort of constantly talking to different parts of the company and interacting with everyone. So it's true that we are probably a little more visible than some other members of our product team might be. Awesome. So I don't want to take up too much more time. We're running into our 30. We try to keep these to like 30 minutes, but I guess I just wanted to ask you, how do you... So you're the head of product for Confluence. You probably have a million things going on. You're scaling your team, you hired the whole new team there in Mountain View. How do you keep up to date and learning in the product sphere, even when you're doing all of that?
Pratima: That's a great question. So how do I keep learning as I am doing that. There are obviously some tactical things that reading really helps me. Everybody learns differently. I try to read a book a month if I don't get to it, I have two young kids. So it's not only divided with scaling a team. I'm a mom with three and six year old. So I can't read full books anymore. I read abstracts or I have audible. If I go work out, I'll just plug in a book and I'll read it. Literally I'll tell you, I'm reading an old book from 2001 I think from positioning. We were doing an exercise and I was like, oh, I just need to go and refresh it and get that book in. And I've read it before, but so much different you get. So I think reading really helps me. I can do it before I go to bed. I can do it in lots of ways. It's a great way. Don't get to do as many classes or refreshers that I heard. But if you have time, there's so many classes that you can work on. But a little thing to know, like there is a rubric, I look at a PM that needs to be really good at. And we evaluate a product managers on those four skills too. So communication being the foundation. And I think that's something I'm always trying to improve on and just taking opportunities to do that. Then product mastery and delivering outcomes is kind of the meat of our jobs. And then at the top is leading and inspiring. And if you take those four aspects of a rubric of PM skills, I don't work on all four of them but I would... Actually literally talking to my boss about a Trello board. I was like, Hey, let's pick one of these that I really want to focus on. I'm going to pick one of them and just focus it. It's not that you are... I think we all are... Even if you made it into product management... You're good at, you met the basic bar of all four, but all of us are different. And then different parts of a life you need to work on different things. So just, I have a Trello board. I'll tell you, I maintain it. I am religious about going there every week and seeing, have I really made progress on what I told myself I will. So discipline, which is very hard to get and prioritization, which is the core of who we are. Helps me learn. I don't do as many classes. I listen more online and offline as much as I can do.
Maggie: That's awesome. I think we love reading and rediscovering things that were written a long time ago. I think, especially when you think about like the first principles of people and how they make decisions, that doesn't change really. And so I think as a PM, we have to understand who people are. And so I find when I go back and read a book that might seem like it's kind of out of date, I always get something out of it because it's like, people haven't really changed.
Pratima: Concepts haven't changed that much.
Maggie: Right, yeah. It's amazing. So if you had to give... I just want to wrap this up. If you had to give our listeners a couple pieces of advice. You talked about how to think about hiring a couple of frameworks that you use. Like what should someone take away today and do to make their culture more open if it's not or try to get a little bit more diversity in the door?
Pratima: I would say it starts with you and so it's nobody else's going to do it for you. So if you really are, if you took one thing, be that seed. Be that seed of change. And I would say, plant yourself and you grow and everybody will come along. So if this is something that you want to do... And I can go another hour on the benefits of doing this which we didn't touch on, but if there's one advice and this is something which is good for you, be the champion and you would have to do it.
Maggie: Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, sharing your advice and helping us all learn a little bit more about how to hire and be more open.
Pratima: Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Maggie.
Maggie: So that's it. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Leave a review. Six stars only. Give Build and Pratima a shout out. I want to know how you guys like these episodes. We'd love to hear your feedback as always. Please send me a note, maggie @ drift. com or hit me up on Twitter @ maggiecrowley. Would love to hear from you. Thanks.