#56: Momentum Makers, Perfectionists, And Founder Bombs
Speaker 1: I'm going to just drop it.
Speaker 2: I'm' already fired up.
Speaker 1: I know you are. man. I already unintentionally got you fired up accidentally. I've just failed the quiz. crosstalk I just failed the quiz.
Speaker 2: I don't want to have to tell nobody.
Speaker 1: No, you don't have to tell the audience. Don't tell the audience. Okay, so what's up, man? What's going on?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: How are you living?
Speaker 2: Large.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so fresh off a week in San Francisco.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get back. I miss my people. Miss the team.
Speaker 1: What did you–
Speaker 2: Miss this audience.
Speaker 1: What'd you think of Sasser? Give me your feedback.
Speaker 2: Had some good meetings.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Good meetings.
Speaker 1: Your session was packed.
Speaker 2: Session was packed. Lots of people. Well worth being out there spending a weekend in San Francisco. I think they could take it up a level.
Speaker 1: The venue was weird.
Speaker 2: It was weak.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was four floors and having everybody in different places.
Speaker 2: No offense Lumpkin crosstalk but it weak, you need to bring up your game.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's what, I just off air. I got some harsh feedback from DC.
Speaker 2: I gave him an F.
Speaker 1: He gave me an F and so you know.
Speaker 2: I'm giving Lumpkin a C minus.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: C minus.
Speaker 1: The people were okay.
Speaker 2: He tried,
Speaker 1: The people were good. We had some good meetings.
Speaker 2: The programming was good.
Speaker 1: You had a good panel with the SalesLoft guys. Almost got in a little argument.
Speaker 2: Except Rob.
Speaker 1: Almost got a little argument over roadmaps and not having dates. You guys had a different of opinion on that.
Speaker 2: We can talk about that. Holler at me. You know where to find me.
Speaker 1: So, that's the catch- up. Also, since the last time we've done a podcast, I meant to tell you that you turned me into a Rich Roll fan.
Speaker 2: What's up rich?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Rich, when am I going to be on the podcast?
Speaker 1: That's what we got to get him. I can send him this audio now.
Speaker 2: Rich, let's do this.
Speaker 1: Plant- based diet.
Speaker 2: I'm going plant- based.
Speaker 1: I've seen it.
Speaker 2: I've been been plant- based now for a few days only.
Speaker 1: This guy talks about plant- based diet being transformational. He said one week on it and he never felt like that in his life before.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get there, Rich. I'm struggling. Although, I just have some coffee here has dairy in it. Forgive me.
Speaker 1: You got to have a little thing. Okay. So here's what I want to talk about today. You had this interesting comment last week where you said, you were just talking about people and you said there's a spectrum of people that you need at a company. And you asked the question, are you a momentum maker or are you a perfectionist?
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's something I tweeted a couple of weeks ago there and a lot of people retweeted that, but I think I always talk about spectrums. Everything to me is two ends of a spectrum. It's the easiest way for me to visualize things. And I think of two ends of a spectrum of being either a momentum maker, right? Someone who creates momentum. Or being a kind of perfectionist on the other end. And I am a momentum maker.
Speaker 1: You are.
Speaker 2: No surprise.
Speaker 1: Elias, my co- founder.
Speaker 2: Is also a momentum maker.
Speaker 1: Major momentum maker. So what is a momentum maker versus a perfectionist? And I don't think there's a right answer. Dave is closer to a perfectionist. He's going to go to the.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you. I had it in my notes. I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 1: You're not officially. You're not all the way. You still have a little bit momentum maker in you. You're kind of in between on here. But you're closer to perfectionist than either Elias and myself are.
Speaker 2: Okay. So tell me about pros. You said it's not right or wrong.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: Pros and cons to each.
Speaker 1: So let's define them. So what's a momentum maker.
Speaker 2: What is a momentum maker?
Speaker 1: A momentum maker, roughly, is a personality type. Even though Elias and myself have totally different personality types, we're the same when it comes to being a momentum maker. And we're someone who defaults to action, someone who bristles at the idea of consensus or rules. Troublemakers in other words. And we are just pushing forward and we want to cut the corners in order to create momentum. And we're kind of fueled by momentum and action. And so what's the negatives of being that type of personality? You cut corners, you miss edges. If you're a developer, you introduce bugs. So you miss details. But to us, those details don't matter Unless we're able to create momentum. Where you might be more of a perfectionist and you might want to perfect something before you ever figure out if you can create momentum around it.
Speaker 2: So, I have this note from you. You said," Momentum makers move really fast, break stuff,
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: "Value momentum over perfection, great to get stuff done but leave lots of things half done and a lot of people knocked over in our wake.
Speaker 1: Correct. That's me.
Speaker 2: That sounds right.
Speaker 1: And Dave is nodding and he's smiling. And he said," That sounds right."
Speaker 2: But I also feel I was trying to think about where I am on this spectrum, because then when you describe perfectionists. We have some perfectionists here and it's different. You deal with change differently. And so on the perfectionist scale, you said they value order, process, consensus building, usually great team builders and communicators. They're the people like me always taking notes, right?
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Or just communicating. You or Elias are never the guy that walks out of a meeting and then says," Okay, I'm going to go write up these notes."
Speaker 1: Never.
Speaker 2: No, somebody else took notes.
Speaker 1: Never. Not that in some ways I want to be that person.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've tried to be that person.
Speaker 2: It just doesn't work.
Speaker 1: I just don't have it. It doesn't work. It's not natural. It doesn't work. I tried for years and I can't be the guy who takes the notes and then communicates and over- communicates and builds consensus. I'm actually very bad, horrible at those things.
Speaker 2: But even just thinking about our team at Drift, this interesting balance of momentum makers and perfectionists, right? It's good to have somebody on the other end of the spectrum to balance that out and gut check you on big decisions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the way that I think about it is early in the life of a company like ours, for example, you want to kind of overload with momentum makers because you're trying to make something from nothing. You're trying to get something into market. And even if you're at a larger company, when you want to start a new division, when you want to create a new product line, when you want to create something new in that company, you usually trying to find those few momentum makers that are in that company or maybe external to that company to bring in, to create a little bit of chaos and a little bit of momentum and get something from the ground up. Build something from the ground up. But as you start to mature and as things become more sure, those people actually become a liability, right? If you have too many of those. And so you want to start to weight the team heavier towards perfectionist and people that are going to care about the details, care about following up, care about getting the team built and rallied around a particular idea. And so over time, the team becomes predominantly perfectionist and very, very few momentum makers.
Speaker 2: I know what's going to happen. We're going to post this and a lot of people are going to say," I'm a momentum maker inside of a big company."
Speaker 1: It means you're a troublemaker.
Speaker 2: "What do I do?"
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's usually you're a troublemaker.
Speaker 2: And at work, does that always mean you have to leave?
Speaker 1: Should I give them the realness?
Speaker 2: Yeah, give them the realness. That's what they come here for.
Speaker 1: I've seen some people make it work, but what they've done, these are people who are momentum makers in larger companies. What they've been able to do is work inside high growth, larger companies. I've never seen them work for a slow growth or traditional kind of company because these people can move on to either larger scale challenges or entirely new challenges by forming new teams, new divisions. It has to be new, new, new, new, new, new something.
Speaker 2: Yeah. They might break off and run a new business unit.
Speaker 1: Exactly. Those are the classic momentum makers, but momentum makers who are trapped in a slow growth or traditional kind of growth company usually are miserable, usually cause a lot of trouble and are troublemakers within those environments, and probably have to leave that environment. And those are the ones that are always opining for starting a company or joining a startup or going to something new because their thirst. They have thirst for that newness and that momentum. They're probably better suited leaving that bigger company.
Speaker 2: Can you think of something that, what's something that a momentum maker would do that would stress out a perfectionist? crosstalk.
Speaker 1: All the things they do every day.
Speaker 2: It kind of goes like the just ship it stuff, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Just ship it, which just drives people crazy. Or," What does that mean? Just ship it, that's too fast" or bristling against certain kind of processes that you have in this internally. Yeah. And I'd say like the things that we do most momentum makers do is N run existing processes internally. And to the people who are in charge of those processes, they feel like those people are going around them, are going around their back, or trying to ignore them, or trying to do something that's basically negative towards that person. But in reality, that momentum maker usually doesn't even see that person, Right? Because they're just so fixated on creating that change.
Speaker 2: What percentage the working population, would you say. Is it 99% perfectionist, 1% momentum maker?
Speaker 1: I'd say it's pretty small.
Speaker 2: It's not to say that those 99 are all perfectionist.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: But just what percentage is momentum is small.
Speaker 1: I'd say it's small. Let's just say that's the best case. It's 80, 20, 80% perfectionist, 20% momentum makers. But who knows what it is. I just say it's a very small group of troublemakers and most people they're either in the middle or closer to that perfectionist side and that's, in our society, a more normal thing to be.
Speaker 2: So do you have to explain yourself?
Speaker 1: I used to. I don't anymore.
Speaker 2: Now you just know, you know right away.
Speaker 1: I just know that I'm a momentum maker. And the reason that these kinds of frameworks, like this one that we're talking about today, are useful, it helps us to understand each other, right? And to explain the differences that we all have with each other in between each other. And without those frameworks, it's easy to make it a personal thing about," Oh, that guy always causes trouble." or" That girl is a troublemaker." or whoever. When in reality, it's just a different kind of person. We've talked about personality testa. This is different angle to it, which is, they may just be a momentum maker trapped in a slow growth kind of perfectionist environment.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was just thinking of CEOs or founders that we talk about a lot. They're basically all momentum makers.
Speaker 1: I know that's why. Most founders are almost always a momentum maker.
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to rattle names off in my head and Bezos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, momentum makers.
Speaker 2: Bezos, Jobs, Benioff.
Speaker 1: Troublemakers. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Every company. A lot of people that we met with last week in San Francisco. CEOs.
Speaker 1: That's why we have the term founder bombs, right? Founders drop bombs. Those are momentum makers, right? They're trying to do it.
Speaker 2: That's how you reposition founder bombs.
Speaker 1: They're not founder bombs, they're just momentum. They're trying to create momentum. Boom.
Speaker 2: I love that. Alright.
Speaker 1: Have I ever dropped a founder bomb on you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, every day.
Speaker 1: Damn. This is real here.
Speaker 2: I have rules. I have a filtering in my head now.
Speaker 1: You have filtering. You have a system.
Speaker 2: I'll tell people what it is. So, if you say something to me, you said" We should do X."
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Unless I immediately in my gut feel" Oh, this is an amazing idea." which a lot of times I do and I'll drop everything and go do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: If I don't initially feel that way, then I just say," Okay, sounds good." And I kind of just file it for a minute.
Speaker 1: Cold.
Speaker 2: But you have this thing where if you really like something, you always come back to it subconsciously. And so three days later, if you mention it again in a different context I'm like," Okay, I got to go do it.", right?
Speaker 1: That's a good system.
Speaker 2: I wait for it to come up twice. If it comes up twice, unless I feel like really passionate about, no, he's definitely, we got to go do that.
Speaker 1: That's a good filter because I think a lot of momentum makers have lots of ideas and misfires. And as we know, most of our ideas are wrong, so it's good to have a filter mechanism.
Speaker 2: But I will say as somebody who borderlines on perfection. I actually do. Sometimes it's liberating. If you suggest a good idea, I love that because then I'm just like," You know what? Screw all this other random stuff that I was going to go work on. This is the only thing that matters." And that's a momentum.
Speaker 1: It lets you focus on that.
Speaker 2: Change for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: For sure.
Speaker 1: That's good.
Speaker 2: Alright. We got to do fan love time.
Speaker 1: Shout it out. What's up, fans. I love these fans.
Speaker 2: This is a couple of days ago.
Speaker 1: What's this, a review?
Speaker 2: This is a review.
Speaker 1: How many stars?
Speaker 2: This is five. And the best part of the title of the review says" Five stars only" comma" son."
Speaker 1: Yeah. What's up?
Speaker 2: This is from Machubhigh." Fresh, practical, thoughtful perspectives on everyday startup and life topics. My favorite new podcast of the last year." And then this is from Bhall03.
Speaker 1: We're coming up, dude.
Speaker 2: Bhall03. Also five stars.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: "A lot of people talk about being customer- focused but David lives it every day and shares what he's learned in short, engaging podcasts. 15 minutes each, if this interests, you also pick up his new free book, Hypergrowth."
Speaker 1: That's not even a paid placement.
Speaker 2: That's not even a paid placement.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you, you're looking at the screen right now, do you see any of those are non- five stars. Can you find them?
Speaker 2: No, we have actually 205 five star reviews. I couldn't find any others.
Speaker 1: They don't have the character.
Speaker 2: I put in a call to Apple to see if we can get bumped up.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Five and a half.
Speaker 1: Five and a half stars.
Speaker 2: Six stars.
Speaker 1: Let's go team. We're making this real this year. Let's go to 300.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Let them know.
Speaker 1: Let's go to 300 five stars only reviews. Shout out. Give us a little love. This is the only love we look for all week. Last night, I was out to dinner. It was Valentine's day last night. I wasn't home. Dave wasn't home with his new bride. We were out at a dinner with an old friend of ours, Sean Ellis.
Speaker 2: What's up Sean?
Speaker 1: Growth hacker extraordinaire. Growthhackers. com.
Speaker 2: Plug.
Speaker 1: Plug. He has a new book coming out. You should pick it up. He gave us an advanced copy. But we were out hanging, four dudes, not pretty dudes, man. Hanging out and Valentine's day romantic restaurant. So the only thing we get all week is to look at those five stores.
Speaker 2: Fan love,
Speaker 1: Fan love.
Speaker 2: I need a pick me up.
Speaker 1: Pick us up, man. Dave couldn't even hang out with his wife this week.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: Give him five stars.
Speaker 2: Alright. We're out.
Speaker 1: See ya! So, have I ever dropped a founder bomb on you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, every day.