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Episode 194  |  30:40 min

#141: Lever's CEO on the 3 Key Elements to Hiring for Hypergrowth

Episode 194  |  30:40 min  |  01.07.2019

#141: Lever's CEO on the 3 Key Elements to Hiring for Hypergrowth

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This is a podcast episode titled, #141: Lever's CEO on the 3 Key Elements to Hiring for Hypergrowth. The summary for this episode is: On this episode of Seeking Wisdom, DC and DG sit down with Sarah Nahm, CEO of Lever. Sarah grew up in Alabama, studied design at Stanford, worked at Google and wrote speeches for Marissa Mayer. Now at Lever, she helps organizations with the ‘art and science’ of hiring the right people. Today, why Sarah hates job descriptions and instead focuses on impact descriptions, how to hire for hypergrowth, making diversity and inclusion a hiring priority and more. Before you go leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review and share the pod with your friends! Be sure to check out more insights on the Drift blog at drift.com/blog and find us on Twitter @davegerhardt, @dcancel, @srhnhm and @seekingwisdomio.
On this episode of Seeking Wisdom, DC and DG sit down with Sarah Nahm, CEO of Lever. Sarah grew up in Alabama, studied design at Stanford, worked at Google and wrote speeches for Marissa Mayer. Now at Lever, she helps organizations with the ‘art and science’ of hiring the right people. Today, why Sarah hates job descriptions and instead focuses on impact descriptions, how to hire for hypergrowth, making diversity and inclusion a hiring priority and more. Before you go leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review and share the pod with your friends! Be sure to check out more insights on the Drift blog at drift.com/blog and find us on Twitter @davegerhardt, @dcancel, @srhnhm and @seekingwisdomio.

Speaker 1: Here we are. We're back.

David: What are we doing?

Speaker 1: We're having a conversation with Sarah. What's going on?

Sarah: Hi.

David: Thanks for coming on.

Sarah: Absolutely. I'm excited to be here.

David: We don't want to do the generic, who are you and what do you do? But before this, you were just talking to David and said something interesting, which is, you're a CEO of this company, Lever. You do this once a quarter and David's like," What brings you to Boston?" You said," Once a quarter, I get out and go meet customers." We're just saying that's crazy. How many CEOs are doing that? Why do you it?

Sarah: Oh, it's my addiction. It kind of gets to my background and what even drew me to tech in the first place, because I have the great honor and privilege of being a designer founder. So my education was in design. I studied design at Stanford. I don't know if you're at all familiar with the Stanford d. school, but they're kind of big proponents of what they call human- centered design thinking. And essentially that's saying use a blend of psychology as well as being kind of a technologist and go in and identify the needs of single people, groups of people and use that almost like understanding of their needs as the starting point for innovation. So I am addicted to user research and getting just that firsthand exposure to how teams work, how organizations work. And I kind of feel like you got to go out there. So it's maybe like my indulgence or-

David: Going back to basics.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if the design team doesn't let me-

David: Design anymore.

Sarah: Design of Lever anymore, and so this is kind of my one contribution still in the design camp. So that's what brings me out here and it's the best. I love it.

David: It's funny. It feels like that's back, that kind of thinking is back. Because kind of early in... I have gray hair, so I've been around a long time. But early on, there was a lot of human- centered work you would read about it and like CNU and a lot of places like that that were focused on this. And it was kind of just back in New York City where I grew up and worked originally, and it was kind of a big thing. And then I felt like I didn't hear about it for a long time. And I feel like I'm hearing about it a lot more now. Right? The importance of design. And I don't know why it's fluctuated. Like most things haven't.

Sarah: Well at least for me, I think that everybody now has been using a smartphone and tablet for years and the simplicity that you've come to expect from software, from applications, I mean, it's kind of the new normal.

David: Yes.

Sarah: So Lever, of course, builds software for businesses to run their hiring process. And so I think now what we're seeing is people are now demanding really elegant, simple user experiences in the workplace. And so out with the kind of clunky, heavy, confusing systems that nobody really wanted to work with. The things that actually almost got in the way of you working and in with this kind of new generation of software. And I feel like drift is a big part of that too, that people are actually drawn to where the software kind of melts away and you're just collaborating with your colleagues. You're just making connections, making decisions. And I actually think that's kind of a big reason why design has a really important role to play in catalyzing change.

David: I agree.

Speaker 1: That's something that we talk about a lot here, which is what's changed is everybody has that experience in their personal lives now. And so then when you go to work, you don't expect it to be different, right. You know, you're using Instagram and WhatsApp and whatever, and that's just in messaging as an example. But whatever products I'm using, whatever I'm using for email, what I'm using for video, and then you go into work and you're like, okay, it's time to use my business software. And it feels like this crazy outdated piece of software.

David: And it used to be clunky on both sides and now everyone's been taught about the importance of design in everything that we consume in our normal lives, that you see the stark difference when you come to work, right. It's really highlighted. And did you know Keith is the master of crushes?

Speaker 1: Yes. This is another super fan. He's done a good job though. Everyone of Keith's fandom like things has always panned out into a great podcast episode. So I think we're in good-

David: Lever might be his second biggest crush. His biggest crush is someone who we've had on the podcast before inaudible Molly Graham.

Sarah: Molly Graham, she's amazing. Give away your inaudible Listen to that episode, everybody.

Speaker 1: He's been crushing. He's been talking about Molly Graham forever. And he's been talking about Lever since, when was it? When we were at HubSpot, a while ago.

David: 2014? Yeah. Maybe 13,14 something like that? What was it that he said?

Speaker 1: He was like... well, one he was obsessed about-

Sarah: He was onto us early.

Speaker 1: Very early.

Sarah: That was when we launched our very first version of the product.

Speaker 1: Very early on, 14. Well, one, we took a different approach to recruiting within our team, which was the product engineering design, that side of the company. And I wanted this approach that was kind of like... It's all better, because it's all what we're doing now, which is all focused on the candidate and focused on... Because I've been just obsessed about experiences. Because I think experiences are the new thing that you buy. For us, I talk about all the time, it's not a product or service or human thing or a bot thing, it's just an experience that I want. And those are the only things that we disproportionately value now, are these experiences. And so I wanted this amazing candidate experience, right. And then, because I think the candidate experience is the experience, is the brand, is the whole thing, like every piece is the brand. And so I wanted that and we had kind of a clunky process in the rest of recruiting in HubSpot. So we created our own process in there. And so we had Keith totally focused on that and we took an approach of recruiting people one person at a time. We didn't use any of the tools or any of the approaches that the rest of the company used. And at some point Keith was dying for an ETS. I wouldn't let him buy an ETS for a long time, because I wanted that... Forever. Actually. That was the whole thing, forever, because I didn't want the tool to get in the way.

Sarah: Yeah. Well, that's exactly what we're talking about. That's kind of old generation, new generation and the conflict that kind of has existed. It's really crazy.

David: I said,"Keith, what should we talk about?" And he's like," Ask her this," because the line was, he said, they built a product that was built for the candidate experience, not the recruiter experience. That seems like the thread, right?

Speaker 1: Is that the idea behind Lever?

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, just to kind of set the stage. I think the biggest idea behind Lever is that how we think about our careers has changed. And therefore, of course, how you have to think about hiring's changed, how you think about designing recruiting has changed, how you of course think about recruiting software has changed. So what has changed about employment and careers and our expectations from work. Millennials are entering the workforce. We're seeing these macroeconomic, macro- cultural things shift. I mean the Bureau of Labor Statistics is probably the best, certainly in the US, the best source of these data insights. And one of the things that they're tracking is of course, average tenure. That people are staying in jobs. And I mean, I think about my parents and my dad has changed jobs twice in his entire life.

David: It's amazing.

Sarah: And I mean, people are now expected to have something like seven jobs in their twenties.

David: Just on their twenties. Just in their twenties. Yeah. And essentially the average time that people are staying in a company is shortening, not because the companies are bad, the jobs are bad, but just the new belief that people have about what work is worth doing and what experiences they want in their careers. So I think as a response to that, organizations need to completely embrace a different kind of premise on talent. And increasingly you are attracting people to you. You are hiring people as kind of an ongoing velocity and in response to it, I think recruiting is shifting away from this administrative kind of paperwork, like I post a job and I fill it too.

Speaker 1: We have a conversation here internally with the recruiting team who can sometimes feel married to the system, which is like," Well, we're having a conversation with Sarah and well, what role is she in? We don't have this. It's not listed in here. And then where do we fill out the thing, and then where does this go after?"

Sarah: That's the old administrative mindset. And that's because recruiting came out of HR. But in the new world, people are realizing that we have to think about talent as a velocity and managing that pipeline is a lot more like sales and marketing and the other strategic parts of the business. And of course, therefore you've got to go beyond applicants and break out of thinking about this, post a job and fill it world, and start thinking about building and managing relationships, having something compelling from a storytelling perspective to tell these people. You're seeing the rise of recruitment, marketing of talent branding. And I think true success happens when you do one really critical, last thing, which is make it kind of part of the entire company's responsibility. Every single person is collaborating, contributing. If you can build it into your culture that you are all ambassadors of opportunities here, then I think that's where the flywheel of succeeding with the new kind of, call it, millennial talent challenge. I think that's when people really start seeing success.

Speaker 1: Totally agree. We try to live that every day here. It's everyone's job to recruit, right? Referrals are a big part of it. We mentioned something earlier, which was job descriptions, which was actually back in when he discovered Lever at first, part of what I was trying to resist with a traditional ETS, not Lever, was just the software getting in the way. And one of those things that was driving me crazy, it was just the whole idea of job descriptions, because it kind of forced this behavior that I saw in the other recruiting departments and other companies that I had been at, which is like," We have a req, we have to fill this req. How do we know this is the best person? Because they have the most things that are identified on this req." You know? And it was this whole meta thing. And at some point I got rid of all reqs in our team and just said," We're just going to recruit people one at a time. We're going to adapt jobs to the skills of the people that come in." And I said because we were hiring people almost on autopilot because they filled some requirements. And my thing was like, I made up all the requirements. It's so funny. In this case it was me, but someone somewhere sat and made up requirements, right. Which were frozen at some point of time in the thinking of the company, which will probably all change by the time someone's, there will definitely change a year from now. So it was just a weird way of check box. Like they had the most checkbox, so we should hire them.

Sarah: Yeah.

David: We actually just felt this recently. So DC found this amazing candidate for a role that we don't have posted. And he reaches out to her, sends her an email. She says," oh, thank you so much for the note. Big fan of what you all are doing over there. But I looked at the website and it doesn't look like I'm a good fit for the job that you have posted. Best of luck." And they were like,"No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't worry about that. The reason we're reaching out is because we think there's a fit. We don't even know the job description. Let's talk." And I think that the thing we found is so many of the best people at Drift, there was very rarely ever a, we were hiring for X, we found X. It's like, whoa, we happen to meet Gonzalo. We happen to meet whoever. And then that's how it happens.

Sarah: Well, that's the thing, right? So many of these HR systems, they didn't actually have a whole lot of room for humans in them. And that's actually one thing that... One of my biggest, I guess you could call it pet peeves about the software category that Lever's in, and something we're really trying to change. I mean, we're trying to do all these things. We've talked about making modern, simple user friendly software, but at the same time, it's not about the process, it's about the people. And so for better, for worse, we've decided to build our whole notion of what is the fundamental unit in our system. It's a person. Yeah. So we're a lot more like a CRM, like a relationship management platform than we are like a process management platform. And one of the things that we put a lot of effort into is building those relationships and doing it, kind of getting your people, your employees at the forefront. So, I mean, we have this product that we call Lever Nurture, and it is a way for you to take people that maybe you don't have a job, or maybe they're currently at a job. And you're just trying to keep the relationship going. Yeah. You can reach out to them and it doesn't have to be some kind of automated, weird impersonal thing. You can actually have the real voices of different people at your company be the ones that are sharing their story.

David: I love that.

Sarah: Yeah. That's I think what organizations want to build relationships that way. Talent out there want to build relationships that way. If you actually kind of make a marriage, those are going to be employees that are passionate, invested in your culture, invested in your brand and your mission. So yeah, I really do believe there's a new way to hire out there. I think Lever is doing its part to try to make change. But I think organizations and leaders inside of companies, sometimes it's scary to stick your neck out and do it. And that's why I think the companies that are going through hyper growth are the ones that are driving the most innovations, that are taking the biggest risks. And I think that they are proving that, that way of thinking that's better for everybody is more successful because they're able to pull off this astounding year over year growth and have such strong cultures while doing it.

David: Yeah. And at the end of the day, what we think and what we see is just it's all the people, right? And so you talked about sales and marketing, and like moving recruiting and people up to that level. And my view it's more important. Those things are just the end result of having the right team. And whether you succeed or not to me, is the team.

Sarah: Yeah. And tying it back to that macroeconomic again. I mean, we saw a shift in the past from the industrial to sort of the service industry. I would even say we're going from a service industry to call it an experience industry, where knowledge workers and the creative class, it is just people. It's not even sort of like the industrial machine anymore. It really is the ingenuity, creativity, passion of people. So yeah, I think the emphasis on finding the right fits and making those kinds of matches in the world, that's both getting harder, but also more business critical.

David: Yeah.

Speaker 1: What led you to want to be a designer? What's the origin story and where did you grow up?

Sarah: Now, we're really getting there. I'll give you 50 guesses to guess what state I grew up in.

Speaker 1: Okay, California.

Sarah: Not California.

David: It's got to be the the middle of the country somewhere. Just something that we're not thinking.

Speaker 1: It sounds like you're West Coast.

Sarah: All right. Well, I won't torture you. Alabama, Birmingham.

David: No way.

Speaker 1: So was your dad in NASA.

Sarah: No, but good call. Huntsville, Alabama. No, I was in Birmingham. Yeah, no, my dad is in medical research. There's a medical school there. Growing up in the south as an Asian American is definitely an interesting experience. I wasn't born there. So I even moved there. And I think at the time, I was like a preteen, I was just like, we're going where? But honestly it was such a great experience for me.

David: Birmingham, Alabama. I've never been.

Sarah: I would recommend it. It's getting very hip nowadays. I sort of don't even recognize it when I go home. There's artisanal coffee, climbing gyms, all sorts of things.

David: Well, everything's getting hip because of the internet.

Sarah: Everything's getting hip.

Speaker 1: Internet's given access to it.

Sarah: Instagram, right?

David: Totally. I grew up in New York City and the time I grew up, obviously it's before the commercial internet, everyone come from all parts of the country to be there., Because to be in certain kinds of scenes, which you would describe artisanal coffee or whatever, whatever hip scene you wanted, whether it was art or what have you, you had to be there. Or you had to be in some other city like that too, because everyone was there and that's how you kind of learned about all this stuff. And then the further you were away from those centers, the harder it was to be part of those scenes. And then I do think there's this part of what the internet... One thing that it helped do, especially Instagram is to make that accessible to everyone. So you can go anywhere and have the Blue Bottle equivalent or the hipster this or the hipster that. And that wasn't the case ever before.

Sarah: Yeah. Well, there is something that has always made me really passionate about technology, which is how it democratizes things. Yeah. So from Birmingham, Alabama to where I am today, what happened? Well, let's see, I think that if I trace back all the sort of ingredients, I guess that led me to Lever, there definitely is a part of it that comes from Alabama. So we founded Lever in 2012. It really was because it was this great opportunity to combine what was this amazing thing happening in the world. You know, whether or not Lever existed, talent was changing. Recruiting was changing. There was something big happening there. So we got to do something about it.

David: You came out of Google?

Sarah: I came out of Google and I think Google was-

David: This was the Laszlo Block era?

Sarah: Yes, this is definitely the Laszlo Block era. And I mean, it was front row seats. I actually had the great fortune, my very first job out of college was of all things, speech writing for Marissa Meyer.

David: How?

Sarah: I asked her later and she had an answer for me, but I still was just like, I don't know. This is just like-

Speaker 1: When Keith mentioned that I was like, was it a posted job that you applied for? Like how-

Sarah: No, no. I mean, the answer Marissa gave me was, she at the time had been really involved in hiring and talent. I mean really involved. And she made a bet with Jonathan Rosenberg who is another executive at Google at the time," I bet I can grow talent faster than you can hire talent." And I feel like this was just part of Google's entire ethos about recognizing that the rules had changed. The game had changed. How you have to think about hiring, you got to get way more creative, way more strategic, way more proactive. And so she founded the associate program, which is kind of like the most-

David: The APM program.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It's kind of the most unremarkable name for what created a whole kind of... It was a remarkable opportunity for me personally, and a lot of great people who have gone on to do great things have been a part of it. So she knew she wanted one of her associates to be her speech writer. And she had never had anybody do this before. It was the first time anybody was going to be helping her. So it's probably exactly like the kind of job that Dave tries to hire for. So she picked my resume out of the pile because I had studied engineering, check. She speaks largely to engineers, audiences about engineering. She at the time was VP of Search and User Experience, so then I also had the design side and then I, of all things, had a minor in Comparative Literature.

David: Okay.

Sarah: She can write. [Crosstalk00:18: 51 ]

Speaker 1: What did you learn from that experience?

Sarah: Like front row seats to how hiring and talent is a C level issue. I worked with her on her internal speaking, her external speaking, and I can't tell you the number of times that hiring, recruiting, talent came up. Yeah. I mean, Board meetings we're talking about here, right. And it was kind of just remarkable in the Laszlo era to get to see how creative Google was getting, how much they were investing in it and how much that investment paid off. In what of course would become a game changing industry, revolutionizing talent brand, recruitment process. And they cooked up some custom software over there as well. So I think the Google kind of environment really informed a lot of what I could then see truly worked. So one of my co- founders also comes from Google. Nate Smith also was in the associate program.

David: Nice.

Sarah: Yeah. And so I think we had a really clear vision of what would be important in our software. It had to be a CRM. It had to bring in the best of, you could call it sales and marketing technology to talent. And it had to make recruiting a shared, collaborative experience for everybody in the company. That was a huge part of Google. Yeah, of course, we left Google to go do that. So thank you to the Google. So 2012 we got started. And then I think the second thing that of course was part of my background that led me to Lever, was that design education. And so we left Google and most intrepid startup founders busily close customers and build software. We didn't do any of that. We actually spent our first nine months as a company doing immersive user research.

David: Get out of here. Yeah. That's awesome.

Sarah: So we reached out to a bunch of companies. A bunch got back to us. And we just set up camp inside of recruiting teams, surrounded by busy recruiters. And one of the people that we spent a lot of time with on the ground was Twitter when they were going from 700 to 1500 employees in six months, basically.

David: Crazy. That type of growth.

Sarah: Yeah. And so really I think that design approach is embedded into us as a company and we haven't stopped ever since. And then I actually do think, bringing Alabama back in here, the way Alabama has even surprised me in being a really big influence in terms of my personal approach to Lever, has actually been in our focus on diversity and inclusion.

David: I think you're 50/ 50, right, from a gender-

Sarah: 50/50 in the company overall. We're actually 43% women in technical and engineering roles.

David: What? How's that? What kind of judo? Teach us the judo.

Sarah: 53% women in leadership and management. 40% women on our board.

David: That's amazing.

Sarah: Yeah. And we're 40% non- white. So one of the areas we actually have to really work on is supporting parents and lots of different family structures better. So that's been a new initiative in the last few years. So yeah. We have invested a lot in diversity inclusion. I'm really proud of where we are and of course there's a lot more to do yet. And I do think that for me... It's almost surprised me because you know, now I can look back and see this thread, but at the time I wouldn't have necessarily seen it. But when I was in high school, I was one of two non- white people in my school.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy.

Sarah: Yeah. My entire school and Birmingham as a city, was actually very segregated. Like re- segregated almost, and it was really obvious that there were the white communities, there were the black communities. And my guidance counselor picked me out to go to one of these sort of like cross- pollination things of the Civil Rights Institute, which is an amazing institution in Birmingham. And all the leaders from the civil rights movement are still working and doing amazing work for their communities today. So I go to this day off of school and you do all this stuff and all the programming is built around, if you're white go over here, if you're black over here or we'll do a mix thing of like. I'm just like," Where do I go?" I actually, from that spent four years working with the Civil Rights Institute. It was kind of my passion thing. It was what I did in high school. And I kind of never thought that would come full circle. I always thought diversity would matter for Lever. So from the time we were like sub 10 employees, we had a DE& I committee and we invested in it from day one. But I think for a long time, I thought that we would just do it for us. Because you know, 2012, the conversation about diversity was not nearly as at the forefront now. And I mean, if you think about back then, even Ellen Pao. I didn't see things making a lot of progress. And then of course, since then, it's just been really invigorating for us as, certainly a company that invests in it for ourselves, but also as a company that has from day one factored in, how will our decisions and our product affect fairness, equality, diversity.

David: Bias.

Sarah: Yeah. Bias. We've thought about it from day one, but now we are actually hearing, you could call it the market, talk about that too.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

David: Yeah. It's wild. It's such a different time. I always tell the story about Elias who's my co- founder and I met him like 10 years ago, that I had worked... And I'm from New York City, right? Not Birmingham, New York City... But I had worked in technology for 10 years and I had never worked with a brown person. I was the only one. I had never even seen one, worked with one on the software engineering side, which is where I came from until I met him. And I was like," He's from Nicaragua." And I was like,"You're the first one."

Sarah: Wow.

David: Yeah. It was crazy. 10 years. It was insane. And that was in New York.

Sarah: That is really crazy.

David: It's radically different now.

Sarah: It is. And I think even at places where let's call it, the demographics aren't there now, the conversation is there. And that's I think almost more important. Right. So yeah, I would say that what are the three most critical things to do when you're about to start hiring for hypergrowth or to pull that off successfully? I think one go beyond applicants, right.

David: Yes. That's the number one thing. I'll come back to that.

Sarah: Two: make sure hiring is collaborative and a team sport. And then three, is invest in diversity inclusion. It's always the stuff you kind of woulda coulda should have afterwards.

Speaker 1: It's almost like you can't wait until hypergrowth for that to happen. It has to be the DNA. It has to be the groundwork that you lay on day one, so you can be set up for that.

Sarah: To me, those three things are, they're the same, right? With Keith and the recruiting team, they'll bring it up. It's like," How do we get better at diversity? How do we get better at this?" And then it's like the decisions you make every day. You may say that, but you... I'm just picking a recruiter... Are just taking the easiest stuff that comes in, and you're not saying, I'm not going to take that. I'm going to do the hard work and I'm going to spend the time to invest and go do this. That's actually how it happens. It doesn't happen because we create a magic program or something like... There's no magic program. Absolutely. You said you were impressed that over 40% of our engineering team are women.

David: Super impressed.

Sarah: 83% of our engineering team was proactively sourced.

David: Yes. That's how.

Sarah: They go hand in hand in hand.

David: Hand in hand. That's exactly how otherwise it would never happen.

Sarah: Or, I guess, I should say referrals.

David: Referrals. Yeah. Yeah. But that makes the whole thing one thing, right? Because the referrals and getting your team involved, diversity has to be part of that conversation. And then doing the hard work has to be part of the whole thing, has to be-

Speaker 1: If you think about it, what do you measure recruiters on. How many jobs you filled? Right. So if you have an inbound applicant, it's a good conversation you have, and then they seem great. Why would you not make that hire? Versus if you can go the other way into, like you're doing 83% is from outbound. You can actually control that. And so we had a conversation recently about a new role we were opening up here at Drift and it's like, wait a second. We have the opportunity to shape this role to be whatever we want it to be. Let's start from there and then go build it the right way as opposed to like, okay, well here's who applied. So we got to pick somebody from this pile.

Sarah: From the pile. Yeah. And I mean, actually you talked about hating job descriptions. We do something at Lever that I actually, this is my one huge thing. Actually I get a little grumbles from people because they know it's like my big thing, which is we don't do job descriptions. I do impact descriptions. So we completely flip it. You don't describe a person or like a ideal person, skills, responsibilities, requirements. We actually say describe the impact that we need. And so you write what within one, three, six, and 12 months, this person, what the impact will be.

David: I love that.

Sarah: Yeah. And I mean, it works on so many levels. I think one, it actually gives a recruiter a great picture of what kind of person they need. And you're actually tapping into their skills to maybe match unorthodox or diverse profiles or backgrounds into this. It's like, oh yeah, I totally know, I can ask about this. Or I know what to do. Two, this is totally where you'd call it your hiring managers. But the employees know their stuff when it comes to what impact goals, success they need. And they don't know how to describe a recruiting JD, you know what I mean? So you're getting your employees engaged. And then I think, thirdly, you're actually getting the best candidates out there, a compelling story. And best candidates out there read a standard job description, their eyes glaze over and they move on. So you're almost recusing yourself from the top five percentile that you actually want to hire. So when you can paint the picture of here's the progression you're going to make over your first year. And when they look at that 12- month bucket, here's what it alludes to beyond that. I mean, that's again how you speak to this new talent strategy. So check out Lever's jobs. We write them all as-

Speaker 1: Everyone check out the jobs.

Sarah: What impact you'll have in one, three, six, 12 months.

David: I love that because that was my other problem with the job description was the person that you really want is not going to read this job description, knows Excel, proficient with Excel. And those are like, what, no one's going to read that. And the breakout person that you want is never going to sit and read that thing. And they're probably not going to be inbound either. Right? So you have to go to them with a compelling story, right. You're going to go outbound and you're going to go find them and you're going to have to find them with a compelling story. Okay.

Sarah: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It also sets that person up for success on day one. Then you come in and it's like, you already know what you have to do. Here's the roadmap.

Sarah: It's like 90% of onboarding. Check, done.

Speaker 1: Wrap us up.

David: Sarah, where can we find you online?

Sarah: Oh my gosh. That's a great question. I'm very easy to find on LinkedIn. I am super easy to on Twitter. Okay. So I'm at SRHNHM. Certainly, if there's any talent leaders out there who want to talk shop about how to make change in this industry. I mean, I nerd out about this stuff, all that. And as we said, at the beginning of the podcast, like meeting people, organizations, teams that-

David: You love it.

Sarah: Yeah. I love it. Yeah.

Speaker 1: That's awesome. Love it. So check out Sarah online and leave a six star review. Not a five star. Do you know anybody at Apple that could help us with-

Sarah: Showing your six star.

David: People, give a five star. And then in the comments leave a six star. So a six star Rating only for Sarah. Give her some love, follow her on Twitter, check out Lever again. Keith has a huge crush on Lever. If you know Keith, you know, he loves Lever. All right, take care, everyone.

Speaker 1: Thanks, Sarah.

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