#69: Working Smarter vs. Working Harder

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This is a podcast episode titled, #69: Working Smarter vs. Working Harder. The summary for this episode is: If you liked this episode, we bet that you’ll love our blog content. blog.drift.com/#subscribe Subscribe to never miss a post & join the 20,000+ other pros committed to getting better every day. ----- "You need to work smarter, not harder." That's what everyone will tell you these days -- but is that *actually* good advice? That's what we're talking about on this episode of Seeking Wisdom. PS. We just announced our first annual conference, HYPERGROWTH. Get your tickets at hypergrowth.drift.com using the promo code SeekingWisdom (one word) Here’s how you can support Seeking Wisdom if you’re a fan of the show: 1. Subscribe on your favorite podcast app. 2. Leave us a five-star review. Here's how: bit.ly/5-Stars-Only. 3. Follow David (twitter.com/dcancel) and Dave (twitter.com/davegerhardt) on Twitter. 4. Learn more about Drift at Drift.com.

Speaker 1: All right. So we're flying solo today.

Speaker 2: By solo. Our homie, Amy is home sick.

Speaker 1: Shes down and out.

Speaker 2: Because she's been grinding that hard.

Speaker 1: Under the weather to say the least.

Speaker 2: And so are we recording?

Speaker 1: Yeah, we're recording. I feel like...

Speaker 2: I always have to check.

Speaker 1: Even if we did a million, like when we do our millionth episode and we're like on stage in front of millions of people. One day, you'll just be like, with millions of people in the audience you'd be like," Dave is this on?"

Speaker 2: Yeah, damn right got to give it a try man.

Speaker 1: That's good. Good. I appreciate that. Dude you know every one out of ten times?

Speaker 2: Yep. Let's go. All right what are we talking about?

Speaker 1: What were you going to say? Well first of all, I want to fill... I think we should fill people in on Hypergrowth.

Speaker 2: Okay. What's going on there?

Speaker 1: We announced a big speaker yesterday.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Brogan Graham.

Speaker 1: Brogan Graham.

Speaker 2: Fire.

Speaker 1: He brought the heat, go check it out. It's up on our blog.

Speaker 2: Blog. drift. com.

Speaker 1: Blog. drift. com. Brogan started the November project. They grew from, in four years, from nothing to 36 cities. They get thousands of people to show up at 6: 30 AM, Wednesday morning and all these cities.

Speaker 2: Rain, shine...

Speaker 1: Rain, shine....

Speaker 2: Snow.

Speaker 1: Sickness, whatever. And they've built this amazing community of people. And it's such a good fit for like this vision with hyper- growth.

Speaker 2: Totally. It's a totally free community. They don't charge anything. Nope.

Speaker 1: No membership, crosstalk. No fancy equipment to get you to go. No spa after.

Speaker 2: Nope. They just run stairs. They run, they create an amazing community. Got to check them out. You don't know Hyper- growth they're probably, I mean, if you don't know November Project, they're probably in your city. Hypergrowth, although will only be in Boston, September 25th, get your ticket now. Promo code" seekingwisdom." One word, let's go.

Speaker 1: You know, it's crazy. There's so many people that have listened that have gone and people are like, we talked about the ROI of the podcast or whatever. So many of you will have gone and used the seeking wisdom, promo code to get ticket. Which is amazing. They're listening to the podcast somewhere and go get tickets. So go do that.

Speaker 2: Thank you team.

Speaker 1: We're going to keep them up there. There's no limit on them, but you know, you only got to hear it here. You got to hear it here to go do it. One thing though, the November project idea is why you always push us to go think outside of like...

Speaker 2: Just technology.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Technology, right? Don't don't like, Hey, if we're looking for marketing inspiration, don't go look at other marketing companies.

Speaker 2: Because they suck.

Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's the same reason we talked about Patagonia like last week, right?

Speaker 2: Exactly. We want to create an inspirational brand. Global brand. We don't want to create a marketing technology software company.

Speaker 1: I was digging in the files, the seeking wisdom files and I found something crosstalk. I got files for days. I found something you said to me. This was a rant. They're always usually rants. They're good.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You said you have this big pet peeve and that is this notion of...

Speaker 2: So many. Narrow it down, dude.

Speaker 1: Okay. I got you. I'm a narrow it down, the notion of working smarter vs. working harder.

Speaker 2: You want to set it off like that today? Huh?

Speaker 1: First of all, what drives you...

Speaker 2: Oh boy.

Speaker 1: Where did the... Well, okay.

Speaker 2: Let me take a sip of this lovely Starbucks coffee here.

Speaker 1: What drives you insane about that?

Speaker 2: I bought this myself.

Speaker 1: You did. You bought mine too. Appreciate it. I get it iced though.

Speaker 2: Okay. Working smarter versus working harder. It's something that drives me crazy.

Speaker 1: Crazy.

Speaker 2: Because every time that someone talks about work, the need to work harder, right? The need to put in that 120% sometimes, you have some troll out there who chimes in and says," well, it's not just about working harder. It's also about working smarter. Don't you need to work hard smart instead?" And I feel like every time I hear from one of those trolls and I do a little deep dive, so I do a little investigation and go find out. Let me find out about this troll here. Let me see what they have achieved. Hmm Hmm. Suspicious.

Speaker 1: Is this a newer thing? Or like, could you even go back 10, 15 years ago and people said that.

Speaker 2: Everyone always said that.

Speaker 1: Always?

Speaker 2: Always. It's universal. I think that, right now, because of it's so easy for anyone to voice their opinion, you hear it more and it is amplified more because it's easier to communicate. Especially easier to communicate using Drift.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Plug, sorry.

Speaker 1: Drift.com.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And so you hear this more and more. And so it drives me crazy because it's kind of like, someone's trying to shut someone else down and say," oh no, I don't need to work hard. I just need to work smart. I got to find the smart way to work." Right?

Speaker 1: Yeah. And the thing that's crazy, like I'm just trying to get in your head. Like the thing that's crazy, I think that drives you insane is though, because when you break down working smarter, they think that this is going to happen in a vacuum. Like there's going to be like this hour a hour per day, where if everything went perfectly for that hour, you're going to be able to get all your work done and everything's going to go as planned and that's it.

Speaker 2: Or a work week. You can buy used copy. I saw you on, but no, it's true. It's like, they think that this is the plate that we have in our society today, which I didn't think it was as pronounced as let's say a decade ago. And that's because we hear it more and more, this plague of zen that and zen habits and life hack this and shortcut that and whatever, that we're going to find these secrets, right? This obsession with secrets has really... We've kind of hit this tidal wave, this frenzy that we're in right now of like secrets and shortcuts and this and that and hacks and travel the world and don't work and work two hours a week. And it's all nonsense. The only people that money doing that are people that sell books and put butts in seats at conferences.

Speaker 1: That is so true.

Speaker 2: That's it, right. Maybe you have a YouTube channel and you sell kind of that idea. But the reality is that you need to do both, right? Obviously you need to work smarter, no duh, no fricking duh. That's obvious, right? Dummy. But you also have to work hard. There are going to be times in life that you have to work hard. And we talk about it and we talked about it actually yesterday, because we had a company meeting here at Drift and said, if you have a chance to do something and you have this shot at creating something meaningful, whether it's in work or life or love or whatever it is. I don't know people who have created something meaningful, putting 50% effort in. There are going to be times in life that you're going to have to put 100% effort in. And you're going to have to be honest with yourself and say, guess what? I can't get those results because I'm only putting in 60%, I'm only putting in 70%. I'm only putting in whatever percent. I'm not putting 100% consistently. So there's no reason that I should expect those efforts.

Speaker 1: Totally. And you gave an example of something at the company meeting, which I thought was interesting. There's a company and you would see them right at 5: 02 every single day.

Speaker 2: Yeah. There hundreds.

Speaker 1: There are just hundreds of people just pouring out of the building at 5:02.

Speaker 2: Yeah. 5: 02 if I go outside their doors and wait 5: 02 on the dot. Hundreds of people.

Speaker 1: It's unbelievable.

Speaker 2: You don't get in their way. Because you cannot get in their way because they will trample you. Hundreds of people streaming out.

Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, hold on. So you're saying that people have to work until five o'clock every day.

Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying? Yep.

Speaker 2: That's not why that drives you insane though.

Speaker 1: That's not why it drives me insane.

Speaker 2: Why?

Speaker 1: So it's not about, that you have to be working somewhere in exactly an hour.

Speaker 2: What drives me insane about it is the fact that they all came down hundreds.

Speaker 1: Same time.

Speaker 2: At 5: 02 meant that at 4: 58, they were all sitting around counting the seconds to escape, whatever miserable situation that they're in, in order to stream out of there. Right. In order to make it down to the lobby at 5: 02 at 4: 58, they were already planning their escape. And my point to the team was like, I never want to work in a company like that. I never want to be around people and in a situation where I am praying for the minute that I can run out of this place. Right. And running every day at exactly the same time, just trying to escape because I just put in enough face time for them to let me out of prison and let me go home.

Speaker 1: So this is like similar to the whole, work- life balance thing, right? Like inaudible bit work- life balance work, smarter work, worker harder.

Speaker 2: It is all related, right? Everything is related. But I think it's my pet peeve because so many of these trolls get up their haters and try to talk about working smarter or read this article or like, I don't need to work that hard. Or like that's antiquated. It's like hard work ain't antiquated.

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 4: Okay. Hard work is never going out of style. And if you want to achieve something meaningful, you may not want to. And if you don't want to achieve something meaningful, you're listening to the wrong podcasts.

Speaker 1: I mean or just go back and if you think about all the books that we talk about all the time or the people that we look up to, the people that we admire, they all have one thing in common, right? Like we could go back to... I know this is one of my favorite books from last year, yours to Shoe Dog. Right? We go all the way back and we talk about Phil Knight...

Speaker 2: What's up Phil.

Speaker 1: The story behind Nike, right. That dude wrote a book about 20 years pre IPO.

Speaker 2: Of the grind.

Speaker 1: 20 years of the grind.

Speaker 2: He had a day job and he did Nike at the same time.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Oh wow.

Speaker 1: It wasn't making real money. Like that's what he had to do. Go back to the Patagonia story that we also talked about.

Speaker 2: The grind.

Speaker 1: This dude was just making climbing equipment and it became a business and there was 10, 15, 20 years before.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But it's the same thing. We live in this world of like," oh, I'm going to make an app and it's going to do this one thing and I'm going to build it in a week and I'm going to sell it. And I'm going to make a crosstalk.

Speaker 2: So don't get caught up and the problem in the work- life balance and this work harder versus work smarter, to me is the same. We are seeking this black and white world. Of like there's only an A and a B, right. There's only two answers. And I just want to know which of the answers... which one do I have to choose? We have this black and white thinking and the world is gray. The world is not black and white. It is not as simple as it's one of these or this. And it's these dichotomies that we struggle with. And it's like, the answer is somewhere in between, the answers that you got to work harder, you got to work hard sometimes. And other times you got to know when to work smart. And we talk so much about the books that we read. Why? Because we are seeking to work smarter.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: What we are as humans are, we have the ability to simulate the experiences of other people, right? Whether it's through a movie, whether through a video, whether through a book, whether through this conversation. Through a podcast, we had that ability where other animals on the planet do not have this ability. Right. And so let's use that ability to learn from others. You don't have to work and grind and make all the mistakes that other people do. Take those lessons of working smarter. And then know when you have to put in the work and you have to work hard.

Speaker 1: I love that. And I think it's so applicable to so many things. Like, I'm just trying to think about whatever we're doing. This podcast or our blog, whatever. I think the work smarter approach would be like, oh, why do you even pay somebody to... Why do you have some on your team that creates that? Well, because we want it to be good.

Speaker 2: Because we want it to be great.

Speaker 1: That's right, 10x. But the work smarter part is how could we maybe automate some of the things that happen after that? Right. Or how do we work together and have like a calendar, a checklist, right? Like here are the 15 things that have to happen after you have a new podcast. You do this, this, this, and we automate those things.

Speaker 2: Those things that don't matter, but not the human thing. And this false black and white way of thinking is behind the mission of Drift. And our mission is to make business personal again. And why? Because this black and white thinking that we're talking about right now has caused the whole marketing and sales ecosystem to go...

Speaker 1: I'm glad you went there cause I'm actually pulling up the thing that you tweeted yesterday I want to talk about that.

Speaker 2: To go the wrong way. We've kind of over- automated. We've taken marketing automation to the 10th degree. And send out 10,000 emails of like Jason Lemkin talk today about," Hey, heard you met at Saster. Hey, we met at Saster or you sent 10, 000 emails from your sales team out pretending to be personal.

Speaker 1: Now there is 500 vendors doing the same thing.

Speaker 2: Same thing.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And now we've hit this point where no mas, we cannot do this anymore as an industry. Right.

Speaker 1: Pretending to be personal thing is something that we think about all the time. And one of the best lessons that I learned in the last year, I think was the real best way to be personal. It's not to do hello, first name and the subject line and personalize like that. It's to actually be a real person and write like a human.

Speaker 2: Write like a human and write to the benefit of the person that you're sending the email. Or the email or the message or the phone call, whatever it is, not to your own selfish benefit. Right. And put them in mind. And think about them. And when you do that, then you're going to create content. And you're going to create conversations and relationships that are 10x.

Speaker 1: And one of the things that came up yesterday. So Seth Godin, who we love, I think a lot of people get over- hyped in marketing, but he's a person that when he reads something, everything he says, I'm like damn.

Speaker 2: That's my uncle.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And you shared this thing that he wrote. And it's called When We Understand. And he talks about modern marketing, the craft of getting ideas to spread has split. There's one side that's trying to fully automate, be a robot. And on the other side, it's like those that want to get at the heart at what makes us human. And then those two paths have split. I mean, you've been talking about this basically since day one.

Speaker 2: Of starting Drift, this is our mission. This is what we're trying to... we are trying to redefine the entire marketing and sales landscape because we think we've gone the wrong way. And we think there's a better way to do marketing. And we're going back to basics back to when marketing and selling were personal.

Speaker 1: And it's funny, because somebody was like," yeah but you guys are using bots." Like bots are like robots. That's the most non- human thing. And the problem is not the technology. It's the people behind it.

Speaker 2: Absolutely

Speaker 1: It's the people using that, those emails aren't sending themselves.

Speaker 2: Yeah. My comment was it's funny enough that the bots that we're using, their aim is to make relationships and make marketing and sales more human. Because their job and what they're used for is to try to make personal connections and to route and to connect, almost like a concierge, connect one human to another human, to have a meaningful dialogue. And where things are getting messed up in the industry today are actually with the humans. It's the humans, whether it's the sales reps or the marketing people who are reading about tips and tactics and automation and this and that, and blasting people with emails. Robots aren't sending emails to people.

Speaker 1: The people want to work smarter. That's why.

Speaker 2: Exactly. They want to work smarter. crosstalk

Speaker 1: How could I do less work and generate just as inaudible.

Speaker 2: I know, let me blast 100,000 people with this fake email, with a Giphy in it and see what happens.

Speaker 1: All right. So that's how we bring this full circle. That is work smarter.

Speaker 2: Work.

Speaker 1: It's not work smarter verse work harder. It's work smarter and work harder. You can do both.

Speaker 2: crosstalk

Speaker 1: I've meant to ask you, are you reading anything good lately? What do you got? What are you cooking up?

Speaker 2: What am I cooking up? I'm actually reading a really good book right now, which I'm going to get you the title of, my seeking wisdom crew. I have it right here.

Speaker 1: What is it?

Speaker 2: But I'm actually reading a whole bunch of books. No surprise to anyone, but I'm almost finished with this book. It's called Getting More. It's written by Stuart Diamond and it's about negotiation skills. So be careful DG. I got negotiation skills coming.

Speaker 1: I noticed something was different this week.

Speaker 2: And then I'm also reading an old old book by Michael Porter. Who's a HBS professor here. It's called Competitive Strategy. Classic. And lastly, there's actually a whole bunch more, but I'll stop here. I'm reading a book called home. I don't know how to say it, Homo Deus. D- E- U- S. I don't know how to say that word, Spanglish. You know, I speak Spanglish and it's a great.

Speaker 1: That's a good mix. That's a good mix right there.

Speaker 2: Mixing it up. Let's not forget that I'm also reading the Greatest Story Ever Told, which I mentioned before by Lawrence Krauss. Who's a professor. Astrophysicist. Amazing.

Speaker 1: Damn. Somebody mentioned a competitive strategy book recently. Like I think it was Bill Gurley was on some podcast. He was like, this is a book crosstalk right around for this week in startups.

Speaker 2: That's where I got it. I heard that Bill Gurley interview and I was like, wow, I don't think I've read that one. Or maybe I read it so long ago I don't remember. And so I went back, dug in the crate and picked it up. Pick up a copy. And while you're picking up a copy, pick up a copy of Hypergrowth. The book is free. It's free on Amazon. And also sign up for Hypergrowth. Come see the uncle let's hang, we'll take pictures. We'll take selfie, Snapchats, IG's, Facebook lives, whatever you need. I got you.

Speaker 1: All right. Here's this week's fan love. Shout out of the week. This is from Doji Style. DC and DG are bringing immense value to the podcast world. I've been designing products for 15 years and never come across such a rich honey hole of information. Not the regurgitated nonsense that you find on every email list, either real ideas that are often unique and outside the norm of the herd. I hope you guys never quit. Despite the lack of ROI on this project.

Speaker 2: We got our life. Hey, I love it. I love the fan love. Thank you Doji. Two things. We need one. Leave that five star review. Actually go check for me and see if they allow six star reviews now. But if they don't leave the five star review. For you for the uncle. And then number two, we need help finding someone. Someone left a comment last week and shouted out Amy.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And only left his or her screen name.

Speaker 1: Email us.

Speaker 2: Email us. We need to know because you won something. You won something. I need to get you the gift.

Speaker 1: Don't email him, email me dg @ drift. com. I'll make sure it gets emailed. We need to give you the prize. That is rightfully yours.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And they mentioned Amy and I believe they might've been from Switzerland or Sweden. Let's get it going.

Speaker 1: Somebody said, you quite literally, can't spend 15 to 20 minutes of your week doing anything that will have a bigger impact on your business. We must have poked that someone with this ROI thing, this person else has had this podcast, this podcast ROI has been exponential for me.

Speaker 2: That's awesome. All right, keep learning, keep growing. I hope you get a chance to join us at Hypergrowth this September. It's going to be amazing. We announced one speaker, Brogan Graham. Who's amazing. But wait until you hear the rest of this lineup, you're going to love it. It's about personal, professional and intellectual growth.

Speaker 1: I think the next time that you hear from us, we're going to be joined by a five- time Olympian.

Speaker 2: What?

Speaker 1: That's, what I heard better. I better go write some notes.

Speaker 2: Go write some notes. See ya team.


If you liked this episode, we bet that you’ll love our blog content. blog.drift.com/#subscribe Subscribe to never miss a post & join the 20,000+ other pros committed to getting better every day. ----- "You need to work smarter, not harder." That's what everyone will tell you these days -- but is that *actually* good advice? That's what we're talking about on this episode of Seeking Wisdom. PS. We just announced our first annual conference, HYPERGROWTH. Get your tickets at hypergrowth.drift.com using the promo code SeekingWisdom (one word) Here’s how you can support Seeking Wisdom if you’re a fan of the show: 1. Subscribe on your favorite podcast app. 2. Leave us a five-star review. Here's how: bit.ly/5-Stars-Only. 3. Follow David (twitter.com/dcancel) and Dave (twitter.com/davegerhardt) on Twitter. 4. Learn more about Drift at Drift.com.