#121: Play Bigger, Creating a Category, and the Bermuda Triangle

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This is a podcast episode titled, #121: Play Bigger, Creating a Category, and the Bermuda Triangle. The summary for this episode is: If you like this episode, we bet that you’ll love our blog content. blog.drift.com/#subscribe Subscribe to never miss a post & join the 20,000+ other pros committed to getting better every day. ----- Today on Seeking Wisdom we’re breaking down the book Play Bigger, the story behind Conversational Marketing and what went into creating a new category at Drift, and we’re joined by two special guests: Remington Begg (@remingtonbegg) and George B. Thomas (@GeorgeBThomas). Play Bigger Book: https://www.amazon.com/Play-Bigger-Dreamers-Innovators-Dominate/dp/0062407619 Get something out of this episode? Leave a 6 star review on Apple Podcasts. If you're a fan of the show we would LOVE you to join us at HYPERGROWTH -- our annual conference at Drift. Tuesday 9/4 in Boston and Monday 9/24 in SF. You can get your tickets at hypergrowth.drift.com with the promo code SEEKINGWISDOM for just $199 -- and that is the lowest price on the Internet just for SW fans.

David Cancel: All right.

Dave Gerhardt: This is going down.

David Cancel: We have a special impromptu-

Dave Gerhardt: Wow.

David Cancel: Look at that you hear that inaudible voice?

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah so he knows.

David Cancel: That's George B. Thomas there.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

David Cancel: What's this other voice here?

Remington Begg: Remington Begg.

Dave Gerhardt: Wow.

David Cancel: All right we got an impromptu Seeking Wisdom and we gathered some folks here, some troops for our last ever Seeking Wisdom in this studio.

Dave Gerhardt: It's hard to hear that.

David Cancel: inaudible

Dave Gerhardt: It's hard to hear the uncles say goodbye like that, but-

David Cancel: Yeah, we're moving into a bigger, better studio.

Dave Gerhardt: It'll be okay. We'll be okay.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: So if this is your first time with us welcome. Welcome we've got a lot of first- time listeners.

David Cancel: Dave Gerhardt, DG.

Dave Gerhardt: I'm DG.

David Cancel: Aka the young nephew.

Dave Gerhardt: Aka the nephew. That's DC, aka the uncle, which is funny because he calls himself the uncle, the old uncle, but if I say it then it becomes-

David Cancel: inaudible

George B. Thomas: Yeah that's no good. crosstalk

David Cancel: I'm the uncle-

George B. Thomas: Only old people can say they're old.

David Cancel: Exactly.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

David Cancel: Exactly.

Dave Gerhardt: We had somebody here once that asked, that thought, somebody said, oh DC, he's the OG. And somebody was like, yeah he's is an old guy. They thought that, OG was old guy.

George B. Thomas: Ah you got to be the original gangster, you can't be old guy.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Remington Begg: Like come on.

Dave Gerhardt: So here's the deal, we're going to talk about some stuff on Seeking Wisdom like we always do. And DC came up to me, he's like, we should have them on because they're here. So we're going to do the Seeking Wisdom we would normally do, but you guys are with us. Is that okay?

David Cancel: Yeah.

Remington Begg: Totally.

George B. Thomas: Yeah absolutely.

Remington Begg: Lets do it.

Dave Gerhardt: Okay.

David Cancel: I was like when are we going to have this chance again? Let's bring crosstalk.

Dave Gerhardt: We're never going to have this chance.

Remington Begg: Yeah so we're like live audience members.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

David Cancel: We are, live audience member. You are the subject.

Dave Gerhardt: So I'm going to put this book out here for a second. You know this book?

George B. Thomas: I want that book. crosstalk Soon as I saw Play Bigger, I'm like-

David Cancel: He's all about it.

George B. Thomas: ...come on.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Remington Begg: inaudible for sure.

Dave Gerhardt: So I want to do-

David Cancel: Do a just copy.

Dave Gerhardt: So I want to do, we're going to do a hybrid book review slash story today, because this all started with last. So last week Angeles sent out this email to four and a half million people and they featured Drift in the newsletter, and it was talking about the rise of conversational marketing. So timely for us to all be talking today, and conversational marketing jobs have grown 450% in the last year. And so DC posted this, he saw this, he posted on LinkedIn and I saw this, this is what I do as a great host of this show. But I pull out things-

David Cancel: He called himself great.

Dave Gerhardt: ... hesays, I pull out things that DC says, and I say them back to him. And then that turns into an episode. So that's kind of what-

David Cancel: And that's this episode.

Dave Gerhardt: All right so he said over a year ago, we were sitting around at Drift trying to come up with a category name for the change we were enabling via real- time sales conversations on your website. We settled on the name conversational marketing after much back and forth, I didn't love the name at the time, but it was the best way to describe the shift so we went with it. Incredibly humbled to see the market adopt conversational marketing and for it to start to take up have a life of its own. The number of new jobs in conversational marketing has quadrupled in the last year. Amazing. Thanks for helping us to find this new category and shift in how businesses buy from businesses. And then at the end, he goes PS, which I didn't know he was going to do this, he goes PS, a few months ago we officially signed on with a well- known book publisher to write the book on conversational marketing, which I was like, okay I guess we're telling everybody. More details coming soon.

David Cancel: That's called the DC bomb. That's known internally as the bomb. I can't bomb myself. I can't-

Dave Gerhardt: So the category of conversational marketing was, did you guys think this would be a thing? Like you guys have been in the marketing space yeah-

Remington Begg: The category?

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah, did you think it was category ripe?

Remington Begg: That's why I have 44 tutorials already.

David Cancel: Yeah. If you don't know Remington, you know-

Dave Gerhardt: I guess that's how you know there's a market-

David Cancel: You know his tutorials.

Dave Gerhardt: ...right?

David Cancel: He knows his tutorials. So Remington tell us more.

Remington Begg: So I saw, I actually had a conversation with George, it was like I looked at it and I'm like, okay this is great. We installed Drift on our site, craziness, and it was working so well I was like this is nuts. We tried a couple other things, blew all of our metrics out of the water. And then I was like, all right we have to do something here. And so I had actually asked the sales guys here about whether there's a partner program, at that point there was not.

David Cancel: No.

Remington Begg: And you guys moved quick.

Dave Gerhardt: DC told us focus.

Remington Begg: Yeah, but then I was like, well I've got to start doing this, because there's huge opportunity. And so 44-

David Cancel: Tutorials later.

Remington Begg: Yeah.

David Cancel: Yeah.

George B. Thomas: You know for me it's funny, because I heard the conversation around conversational marketing and I thought, oh that's clever. And then all of a sudden people started asking me about Drift and I was okay I should probably pay attention. And then the reason that I started to dive deeper is because I realized you guys were fixing a problem that everybody thinks is already solved and it's not, and the software does that.

David Cancel: You hear that? The man is here.

Dave Gerhardt: That's why I looked at you. I was like, okay you got.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: But you knew we didn't have a name for it, but you knew since the beginning this was, I mean you wouldn't have started the company without inaudible category-

David Cancel: We knew that there was a shift happening, the momentum happening in the way that people were expecting to buy and communicate was changing. That had nothing to do at the time with sales and marketing the way that we think about it. And we just thought like, well something has to change. We have no idea what's going to change. And it took some time to explore and figure out like how does it actually fit in this world right? Maybe won't look exactly the same, but like who knows it, Morris, but you can have something where conversations and become a primary thing in the form of messaging happening to billions of people within a five- year period and then have no effect for the rest of the business.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah, so I actually don't, I don't want to dive in deep on what is conversation marketing on this.

David Cancel: Sure.

Dave Gerhardt: I want to talk more about the category, because what happened is when you posted that you got a lot of comments of people saying like, how did you guys come up with the category? Like did you always know? Did you have the idea? And it was like, no, we spent two years-

Remington Begg: They are a category.

Dave Gerhardt: ...basically trying to figure out what the, we created it right?

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: But I do remember this from the early days you would be always, you and I would always talk about what are we going, what is the name? What is the name? And if you go rewind all the way back in your marketing book history, the 20 immutable laws of marketing, do you know what the number one law is?

David Cancel: Create your own category.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah. The law of leadership, it's better to be first than it is to be better. And I think that's the number one lesson that I want people to take from this episode is, whatever conversation marketing, of course that's us that's what we're doing. But the thought of like going out and re segmenting the market and creating a new category.

David Cancel: Absolutely.

George B. Thomas: Well but the thing about that though is not everybody will do that, because they're afraid. And so what I can tell by what you guys have been doing is that it's like, no, we're not afraid to fail. We'll name it whatever we need to name it, because we got to get it out there, because we have to solve the problem. And there's so many companies out there that are like, well we'd like to do that. I mean that'd be a nice, but then they're like, ah but it's comfortable. Let's stay in-

David Cancel: Stay in comfort.

Dave Gerhardt: That's the first law, the second law, I'm not going to go through all 20. The second law is the law of the category, which is if you can't be first in the category go and create your own.

David Cancel: Yeah. And if you don't recognize that voice, that's George right there.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

David Cancel: I've watched his videos for how many years have you been putting out videos? It's a long time.

Remington Begg: Forever.

George B. Thomas: Four years.

David Cancel: Long time. We'll link it below, and we'll link to Remington below, and we'll link to all the stuff that they do below. But these guys are OGs. Not old guys.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

George B. Thomas: crosstalk fit in both categories.

Dave Gerhardt: Me too.

George B. Thomas: Like most people, oh you're 36, I'm actually 46.

David Cancel: Oh awesome.

Dave Gerhardt: OGs.

David Cancel: OGs, this is the OG side here. You want to come out? You want to come out on age?

Remington Begg: I'm just going to...

Dave Gerhardt: I have no idea.

David Cancel: I know-

Remington Begg: How old do you think?

Dave Gerhardt: I don't know.

David Cancel: No idea. I have like it's like a 10 year span.

Dave Gerhardt: I have a guess.

Remington Begg: Let me check the date.

Dave Gerhardt: I have a guess.

David Cancel: All right.

Dave Gerhardt: But I have a guess, but you say-

David Cancel: crosstalk

Remington Begg: Come on, someone guess.

Dave Gerhardt: 38?

Remington Begg: Nope. I'm going to be 35 on the 28th.

Dave Gerhardt: Wow.

David Cancel: Wow, young guy.

Dave Gerhardt: That's good.

David Cancel: Dude you better, how old are you?

Dave Gerhardt: 30.

David Cancel: You got to step up.

Remington Begg: Are you really?

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah, I better go.

David Cancel: Look at Remington.

Dave Gerhardt: I better loose more hair faster.

David Cancel: Making moves.

Remington Begg: Burn number two on the show.

David Cancel: That's awesome. That's amazing.

Dave Gerhardt: No, I meant myself.

Remington Begg: I'm already there.

Dave Gerhardt: Wow, okay.

Remington Begg: So you make money, I'll just share with you.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah you do.

David Cancel: He's got so much hair. We're all hair challenged here.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

David Cancel: Except for George. But you mentioned that post from last week. And then you brought out this little book here that we're going to give to George here called Play Bigger.

Dave Gerhardt: Yes.

David Cancel: Because George is about playing bigger. And this was a book that I kind of gave to a bunch of people here. I read a long time ago, and I gave a bunch-

Dave Gerhardt: This you gave a bunch of copies, but then shout out to Pat Grady at Sequoia, after they invested in our series B, he sent us a box of these books.

David Cancel: Yes.

Dave Gerhardt: And was like-

David Cancel: And on the back you see Jim Goetz Sequoia partner here. Anyway, the reason that this is relevant we were reading this book and thinking about this at the very beginning. And this is a book on creating categories and Christopher, author here, chimed in on that their blog posts on LinkedIn. It was amazing.

Dave Gerhardt: Said congratulations on creating the category. We have to tell the stories.

David Cancel: Yeah, and then he said, but now you got to become the category killer.

Remington Begg: Full circle.

David Cancel: You got to kill the category. You got to own the category.

Remington Begg: Hell yeah.

David Cancel: So that's amazing that, you know I was talking to George earlier about like just putting stuff out there, you just put stuff out there and it comes back to you. We talking about reciprocity, I don't know if you remember that.

George B. Thomas: Oh yeah. It was like just 10 minutes ago-

David Cancel: 10 minutes ago. I usually don't remember that far.

Dave Gerhardt: crosstalk is borderline, like-

David Cancel: DG will tell you about my memory.

George B. Thomas: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: I actually see-

David Cancel: They have to repeat back what I said.

Dave Gerhardt: I feel like sometimes now I feel like someone whose now, like I need to be like the DC coach, the DC whisperer at Drift. Like I see so many people walk up and be like, DC remember that thing you told me to do? And I just see the look in his eyes. I'm like, you can't know that he has no idea. He has no idea. Like, just go, you got to start over.

Remington Begg: But I totally get it, because you're so onto the next thing.

David Cancel: Yes.

Dave Gerhardt: He's in the moment it's tough yeah. In a good way.

Remington Begg: Kindred spirits, because I'm like, well that was so five minutes ago, like I've got these other 32 videos that I need to make.

David Cancel: Yeah, totally. I feel like that about anything. And just like, you know Mondays, what'd you do this weekend? I'm like, yeah I don't, I'm frozen.

Remington Begg: I don't remember.

David Cancel: I don't know.

Dave Gerhardt: It's Monday.

Remington Begg: I can't look at my calendar on a week view. It has to be day.

David Cancel: Yes, same way. Look at that we're the same.

Dave Gerhardt: Wow.

David Cancel: You better get on this-

Dave Gerhardt: A week for you stresses me out.

Remington Begg: It can't.

Dave Gerhardt: Look what I have-

Remington Begg: It doesn't even stress me out. I just can't.

Dave Gerhardt: I like that. That's why you keep coming up to my desk. You're like, you have five minutes now? And I'm like, all right let's do it. You're here right? So the book though in Play Bigger, it's not just about, it's not, what stood out to me is it's not just that you need to create a category, it's they went back and they unpacked some of the most successful companies over the last 20 years. And they all had basically one thing in common, which is they went out and they created a new category right? I mean, Apple, they use Steve Jobs as an example, he did it five, 10 times. He kept creating new categories, but there was Uber. And the biggest thing that is not just creating, and this is what I think we have to do here at Drift and to tie back to conversational marketing is like, it's not just creating a category. The category has to be bigger than you in order for this to succeed. And so they talk about Jawbone in the book, do you remember, they talk about Jawbone as an example.

David Cancel: Do you remember Jawbone?

Dave Gerhardt: At the headset. And he talked about Jawbone, there was a time where everybody was buying Jawbone, everything was talking about Jawbone, but they didn't actually go out and invest the work in creating a bigger category. And so when other companies started to come out with Bluetooth and the wearables they got their lunch ate.

David Cancel: Yeah. One thing that we didn't do is introduce Remington and George.

Dave Gerhardt: We didn't introduce them?

David Cancel: No.

Dave Gerhardt: Oh-

David Cancel: inaudible

Dave Gerhardt: But isn't that what makes this show so great.

David Cancel: That's true. crosstalk

George B. Thomas: Flexibility.

David Cancel: Flexibility.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah flexibility.

David Cancel: But I learnt so many interesting things about-

Dave Gerhardt: Tell me.

David Cancel: About Remington.

Dave Gerhardt: What?

Remington Begg: Oh Lord.

Dave Gerhardt: You did?

David Cancel: Oh like a million lives yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: He's a million lives.

David Cancel: He lived on a boat-

Remington Begg: Yeah in the Caribbean.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: You did?

David Cancel: Till he was 14. Is that right?

Remington Begg: Yup.

David Cancel: 14-

Remington Begg: From seven to 14, see his memory does work sometimes.

David Cancel: Yeah, I just remembered when-

Dave Gerhardt: That's a good story though.

David Cancel: Well yeah. On a boat?

Dave Gerhardt: You did?

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: That's crazy.

George B. Thomas: A place you might know.

Dave Gerhardt: Where? Worcester?

George B. Thomas: Like it's a triangle.

Dave Gerhardt: Oh yeah.

David Cancel: The Bermuda triangle?

Dave Gerhardt: You did?

Remington Begg: Yeah I lived in the Bermuda triangle, yeah.

David Cancel: What! That explains you.

Remington Begg: Yeah we actually mentioned that in our podcast.

Dave Gerhardt: But how did you get there?

Remington Begg: Huh?

Dave Gerhardt: You were seven years old.

Remington Begg: On a boat.

Dave Gerhardt: No, how did like, from seven to 14 you're living in Bermuda triangle.

Remington Begg: So my dad looked at my mom and he's like, I want to travel the world. And pretty much like everyone pack up a bag. We jumped on a sailboat, went from Bermuda down to the Caribbean. And that was seven years.

David Cancel: DHD likes that, she's a free spirit. She's like that sounds good. That sounds good. Get on a boat.

George B. Thomas: It's dope, it's just amazing.

David Cancel: My dad's definitely free spirit.

George B. Thomas: So many of us have other stories of like, yeah we lived in an apartment for 14 years.

David Cancel: That's my story.

George B. Thomas: In Des Moines, I don't even know why I said Des Moines. Dude it's a great story.

David Cancel: Where did you grow up George?

George B. Thomas: Oh yeah, see I moved around a lot.

David Cancel: See these guys are deep.

George B. Thomas: But most of my life I lived in Montana, blue sky, you know-

David Cancel: You lived in blue-

George B. Thomas: Blue sky, big sky, oh yeah-

David Cancel: How was that?

George B. Thomas: Oh yeah between Bozeman and Butte, loved it. But I didn't want to be a cowboy and I didn't want to work at a gas station, and so I like had to move on, but then I've also lived in California, Virginia, Texas, Ohio. Now North Carolina-

Dave Gerhardt: You just keep moving?

George B. Thomas: About every seven years until I met my wife I had like really itchy feet, and I had to just go onto the next.

David Cancel: Where's your wife from?

George B. Thomas: She's from Hartville, Ohio. And I lived there for 13 years, moved because of her, only her.

David Cancel: Of course, only her.

George B. Thomas: And then five years we lived in another place, and then we've been in North Carolina for four years, which we love, we love the NC.

David Cancel: The NC, you like the NC?

George B. Thomas: Oh it's the weather.

David Cancel: Man this guys lived everywhere.

Remington Begg: Florida.

Dave Gerhardt: You got all the spots.

David Cancel: Dave you don't have any interesting stories.

Dave Gerhardt: I know, I was thinking about everybody has something interesting, I'm like-

David Cancel: Yeah, Florida on the West-

Dave Gerhardt: I don't go anywhere.

David Cancel: I mean you guys are on the West coast of Florida.

Remington Begg: Huh, West coast yeah.

David Cancel: West coast yeah, yeah. West coast is good yeah, you can chill there. He said there was good vibes.

Dave Gerhardt: Hopefully.

David Cancel: Yeah, good vibes.

Remington Begg: Always good vibes.

David Cancel: The two of us are vibing.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

David Cancel: And so yeah we figured that out.

Dave Gerhardt: It's cool. Just now.

David Cancel: So you have great vibes. Yeah, we were talking about that before-

Remington Begg: 10 minutes ago.

Dave Gerhardt: That's crazy.

George B. Thomas: Well that might've been 12 minutes now.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah now-

George B. Thomas: Our conversation where like pieces of over time.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: So you two are working together now-

George B. Thomas: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: ... but youdon't work in the same office, right?

Remington Begg: No, is George has a remote-

Dave Gerhardt: Oh you're remote.

George B. Thomas: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah. You have an interesting, you were telling me this yesterday, you have an interesting setup though. You have a lot of remote people.

Remington Begg: Yeah. So we've got four remote people, including George now. And then I've got 10 in- house and-

Dave Gerhardt: But you were saying something like you just have the Zoom like on, on a screen.

Remington Begg: Yeah like I urge people just to hang out on the Zoom meeting so they can hear the isms that go on during-

David Cancel: That's pretty cool.

Remington Begg: ..the day, because remote staff sometimes can feel siloed. Now, granted sometimes they like it, but-

David Cancel: That's can create.

Remington Begg: ...you know with Zoom rooms they can unsolicitedly just like chime into the collective, which is our main situation room. And they could just be hanging out right above the pod-

David Cancel: Damn, the collective.

Remington Begg: The collective.

George B. Thomas: Yeah have the Borg here.

Remington Begg: The collective and Wayfinders.

David Cancel: Yeah I love that. He was telling me, not to advertise for Zoom-

Remington Begg: No.

David Cancel: ...shout out, Eric-

Dave Gerhardt: Shout out.

David Cancel: ...the CEO of Zoom. They have Zoom rooms in every room. We don't even have that.

Dave Gerhardt: What is a Zoom room? It's like a hardware. It's hardware?

Remington Begg: Do you want to take this offline? I'm just kidding. No, but we can-

Dave Gerhardt: We already said I'm not the tech guy. There's a lot of tech in this room-

Remington Begg: So you know how many buttons you had to press in that conference room right there-

Dave Gerhardt: Every meeting of ours starts like that-

David Cancel: He relearns it each time.

Remington Begg: One button on an iPad.

Dave Gerhardt: What are we doing? Look at how much gear you have. We don't have that. Are you kidding me?

Remington Begg: We got this, we got mikes.

Dave Gerhardt: You got everything.

David Cancel: We have stuff here, you want this? We got this.

Dave Gerhardt: Everything you want.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: Everything.

David Cancel: I didn't know. I didn't know. crosstalk

Remington Begg: Well you got a new office coming, so-

David Cancel: Yeah, we'll put in there. Have either of you read this book here?

Remington Begg: I have not. I've never even heard of-

Dave Gerhardt: George B. Thomas is taking it home.

David Cancel: This is George's copy here, but we're going to get a copy for Remington.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah it's called Play Bigger, Play Bigger. How pirates, dreamers and innovators create and dominate markets.

Remington Begg: Pirates.

David Cancel: Look at that, he is a pirate.

Dave Gerhardt: He's a pirate.

David Cancel: He lived on a fricking boat-

Dave Gerhardt: For seven years yeah.

Remington Begg: Yeah, so this whole wayfinder thing is very much nautical-

Dave Gerhardt: That's where it came from.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Remington Begg: Yup it's very much like understand where you need to go, but you got to understand where you're coming from.

Dave Gerhardt: Okay.

David Cancel: Wait, was your dad a pirate?

Remington Begg: Kind of.

David Cancel: Where you hunting for treasure?

Remington Begg: No, always.

David Cancel: Kind of, you know like Florida to me is just pirates.

Dave Gerhardt: Just pirates?

David Cancel: Yeah. There's like old people and pirates.

Remington Begg: Yeah.

David Cancel: That's how I think about it.

Remington Begg: That's Florida, you should come down and visit sometime.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: Florida is a weird place.

David Cancel: I visit.

Remington Begg: We'll have pirates.

Dave Gerhardt: He does. He has family in Florida, every time he's in Florida I know he's in there because I just get text message, like this place is weird.

David Cancel: Yeah, East coast.

Dave Gerhardt: Not weird in a bad way. Just like, it's okay-

David Cancel: It's a mix, super mixed. Yeah it's different. But it's just like old people, pirates.

George B. Thomas: They're either offering you a piece of candy or like, arg.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Remington Begg: One of the two. So the one thing I love about Florida is every time you leave, you're excited about going back right?

David Cancel: Yeah, get warm again.

Remington Begg: I've been to a lot of places and you look forward to going back home.

Dave Gerhardt: But you've been here all week man-

Remington Begg: I know.

Dave Gerhardt: ...the vibe in here is electric.

Remington Begg: The vibe in here is pretty-

Dave Gerhardt: It's pretty good.

Remington Begg: ... it'spretty drifting.

David Cancel: Pretty drifty. Oh look at that. Well played.

Dave Gerhardt: Okay. So let's talk about categories real quick, off the top of your head, company that you can think when you think category, what company stands out?

George B. Thomas: Oh see you've already programmed me to say Apple.

Dave Gerhardt: Can't say it.

George B. Thomas: Because you talked about Apple.

Dave Gerhardt: So that's good. That's what Seeking Wisdom is about. Give me something. We got time. We got nowhere to go.

David Cancel: You're on the hot seat.

George B. Thomas: When I think of-

Dave Gerhardt: Everybody else is, these two are thinking of them right now.

David Cancel: And they're hard, my brain hurts right now.

George B. Thomas: Sonos.

Dave Gerhardt: Sonos.

George B. Thomas: Yeah.

David Cancel: That's a good one.

George B. Thomas: That's the first thing that popped in my head for some reason.

David Cancel: That's good.

George B. Thomas: But probably because I want some like dope speakers in my office-

Remington Begg: Because you just, you were just jamming out on your way.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: No, I think that's a category right?

George B. Thomas: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: I mean Bluetooth had existed, they didn't invent Bluetooth, but now-

David Cancel: And they work over inaudible-

George B. Thomas: I don't have to nail anything to my wall.

David Cancel: Yes.

George B. Thomas: I want to just, and I want it to be cool.

Dave Gerhardt: And it's become like a word, it's a word now right? Like you get it. Oh, hey we got to get a Sonos in the new office right?

David Cancel: Yes.

Dave Gerhardt: I don't even think that means get literally a Sonos, it means get wireless speakers. All right, DC what you got?

David Cancel: Easy one. Just Uber.

Dave Gerhardt: Uber.

David Cancel: But you mentioned that one before, we're cheating.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

David Cancel: Yeah Uber created a category.

Dave Gerhardt: A 100%.

Remington Begg: I got two.

David Cancel: All right make up for us.

Dave Gerhardt: Two.

Remington Begg: Kleenex.

Dave Gerhardt: Kleenex.

David Cancel: Dam-

Dave Gerhardt: Because you said word, you said Kleenex.

Remington Begg: That's exactly why.

Dave Gerhardt: I like that.

Remington Begg: No, but-

George B. Thomas: Because it's really a tissue.

Remington Begg: Right.

George B. Thomas: Give me a Kleenex.

Dave Gerhardt: See.

Remington Begg: Even when you're reaching for Puffs.

David Cancel: Yeah, give me a Kleenex.

Dave Gerhardt: That's true.

Remington Begg: But no-

Dave Gerhardt: Kleenex is going.

Remington Begg: Yeah, Facebook though.

David Cancel: Yes.

Remington Begg: Right? So social media is super, super thick, but there's so much out there. Facebook owns it. Now they buy it, but they also-

Dave Gerhardt: And they didn't invent social networking either.

Remington Begg: Right.

George B. Thomas: See this is where I could wish I could be a time traveler.

David Cancel: Yeah.

George B. Thomas: Because I would go back like three minutes and I'd be like-

David Cancel: Facebook. George book.

Dave Gerhardt: I thought you were going to say something about like categories and social networks in the early days.

George B. Thomas: No, crosstalk sounds legit.

Remington Begg: We're one team.

David Cancel: You're one team, that's good. Look at that he made up for you.

George B. Thomas: Yes.

David Cancel: DG you didn't make up for me.

Dave Gerhardt: I'm facilitating this conversation. I don't think I got-

David Cancel: I've never seen the other side of the screen, so Remington is looking at his notes there.

Remington Begg: I know I'm like-

David Cancel: I have never seen the notes.

Dave Gerhardt: I just actually crosstalk-

David Cancel: Is it blank screen?

Remington Begg: Yeah.

George B. Thomas: He's like doing some Insta right now.

Dave Gerhardt: I've never seen the other side of this-

David Cancel: Are you on Insta.

Dave Gerhardt: ...screen?

David Cancel: I have to-

Remington Begg: You know it man, somebodies got to keep this show running.

Dave Gerhardt: He sees the talent. He just has to show up.

David Cancel: Okay.

Dave Gerhardt: We've got to have this place nice. We got to have some green Skittles. Some M&Ms-

David Cancel: Yeah, we have green M&Ms.

Dave Gerhardt: And DC will show up.

David Cancel: All right.

Remington Begg: Is that what you like? Green M& Ms?

Dave Gerhardt: That's it, that's all I have.

David Cancel: That's it.

Dave Gerhardt: That's all I have.

David Cancel: We have guests here, dude.

Dave Gerhardt: I thought this was we're supposed to do, just have them come and talk.

David Cancel: I was joking. This is awesome. So tell us what you guys have been working on? Give us something, give the people something.

Remington Begg: We've been working on a lot of things. I'm real excited to have George on the team. He's going to be-

David Cancel: Name your company.

Remington Begg: Impulse Creative.

David Cancel: Yeah Impulse Creative.

Remington Begg: You go to impulsecreative. com.

Dave Gerhardt: Use the promo code Seeking Wisdom and get 20% off the first month-

Remington Begg: In the Drift bot, in the Drift button, definitely mentioned Seeking Wisdom.

Dave Gerhardt: So Impulse Creative.

Remington Begg: Yeah. But no, so I'm real excited about, there's been a lot of conversations we were having earlier about people graduating out of having service delivery. And so George is going to be commanding the like you want to learn about inbound or you want to learn about conversational, like that's his job.

David Cancel: That's awesome.

Remington Begg: And so he's going to be working hand- in- hand with clients and employees, and then we're working on a podcast too.

David Cancel: What's it called?

Remington Begg: Wayfinding Growth.

David Cancel: Wayfinding Growth?

Remington Begg: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: What's does that mean you're working on a podcast? Like you're recording episodes and you're going to release them?

George B. Thomas: inaudible

David Cancel: Yeah.

Remington Begg: Release this week.

George B. Thomas: We structured it-

Dave Gerhardt: You've been podcasting for a while, right?

Remington Begg: Yeah.

George B. Thomas: 172 episodes of the Hub Cast-

Dave Gerhardt: That pretty good.

George B. Thomas: Like it's really weird-

Dave Gerhardt: Bittersweet?

George B. Thomas: ...to start over.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

Remington Begg: But it's fun though.

George B. Thomas: It's fun. And what I like is just the conversations we're going to have, it's going to be broader, and so that's going to be good.

David Cancel: And when you start over, question, is it like I'm going to go a whole different direction?

George B. Thomas: No, I learned from things that we did historically and also implement things that I wished I would have done the first time. And it is a little bit of a different direction, because it's not as specific or niche, but it's definitely relevant for people who want to be super successful in business.

David Cancel: And is that the category it would be under? Business, marketing? Where would it be?

Remington Begg: Yeah. Kind of growth. I mean similar.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Remington Begg: Similar directions.

David Cancel: Same mindset.

George B. Thomas: Marketing, sales, growth.

Dave Gerhardt: We have our faces on ours too. It's good.

George B. Thomas: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: Another category you guys are building.

George B. Thomas: Podcast with faces on.

David Cancel: I don't know if we can compete.

George B. Thomas: No, you guys-

David Cancel: What's going on here?

George B. Thomas: We're just trying to keep up.

David Cancel: I don't know.

George B. Thomas: Keep up.

David Cancel: Do you have a mug though?

Remington Begg: We don't have a mug.

David Cancel: DG-

Dave Gerhardt: Merchandise, I had just started at Drift that day.

David Cancel: Look at it there.

Dave Gerhardt: That was the first day, look I had a-

Remington Begg: So day two the hair-

Dave Gerhardt: The forehead was less shiny. And then I started getting messages from DC. Ping, ping, ping. And I'm like-

David Cancel: Hair plugs man.

Dave Gerhardt: That's funny.

George B. Thomas: No, actually we're starting a new podcast category since we're talking about-

Dave Gerhardt: Oh you are?

George B. Thomas: Yeah. We're starting the, how to make revenue category-

David Cancel: What's that?

Dave Gerhardt: Want to make revenue off of podcasts. Talk about that.

George B. Thomas: No-

David Cancel: That's actually-

George B. Thomas: The clue is how to make it.

Dave Gerhardt: I thought you were going to make revenue.

Remington Begg: No, so actually our episode talked about that-

David Cancel: We need to learn that.

Dave Gerhardt: How to make revenue from the podcast-

David Cancel: Really.

Dave Gerhardt: ...for sure.

David Cancel: Oh, that's awesome.

George B. Thomas: Oh yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: So that's the underlying theme of your podcast is if you listen to your podcasts you're going to go make more money-

David Cancel: For your podcast.

Remington Begg: Yeah.

George B. Thomas: You're going to do it smarter, better, faster. It's almost like the$6 million man. They'll get that, you might.

David Cancel: Yeah, he doesn't. See his eyes glazed over.

Remington Begg: I got it.

Dave Gerhardt: I was onto the next question.

David Cancel: Are you on iTunes yet?

Remington Begg: Is it on iTunes yet?

George B. Thomas: I don't know, is it on iTunes yet? It's at wayfindinggrowth. com.

David Cancel: Okay.

Remington Begg: And it's a video podcast.

David Cancel: Oh video podcast.

Remington Begg: Yeah, so we're doing a video podcast. So it takes a bit more production. It's all Georges thing there.

Dave Gerhardt: So what does that mean? What does that mean a video podcast? Like in iTunes, in Apple podcast you can watch a video for it?

Remington Begg: Yeah.

George B. Thomas: So you can either listen to the audio version or you can watch the video version, or you can go over to YouTube, or you can go to Stitcher, or eventually you'll go to Spotify or Google Play or iHeartMedia Radio.

Dave Gerhardt: Should we be doing that? And where did you make it show up the other day? You shared that on social.

George B. Thomas: Where did I make it show up?

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah, where does it show up? The podcast on the internet? Oh, Alexa-

George B. Thomas: Oh yeah I got nerdy for a hot minute-

Remington Begg: He was super excited.

George B. Thomas: My wife was like, dude what are you doing up so early? And you haven't even brewed coffee yet.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah what's going on?

George B. Thomas: And I'm like baby I'm making-

Remington Begg: His Mohawk wasn't even set-

George B. Thomas: ...scale.

David Cancel: Get out of here. Talk about conversational.

George B. Thomas: So now I can wake up and I can go-

Dave Gerhardt: Give me Remington.

David Cancel: Don't say that.

George B. Thomas: So what you can do, you can put it in your brief, and then all of a sudden it'll just play the podcast for you.

Dave Gerhardt: Flash briefing.

David Cancel: That's awesome.

George B. Thomas: Yeah it was so fun.

Dave Gerhardt: That's sick.

David Cancel: Dude we don't have a skill.

Dave Gerhardt: We don't have a skill.

George B. Thomas: You guys should do an Alexa skill.

David Cancel: We don't have a skill.

Dave Gerhardt: I know the guy, I'm going to get dinged in my review.

David Cancel: You have no skill.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah no skill.

Remington Begg: We'll add a skill.

Dave Gerhardt: Lack of technical knowledge.

Remington Begg: We'll hook you up.

Dave Gerhardt: I love that.

George B. Thomas: I love to get nerdy, but sometimes you also just got to educate people and-

Remington Begg: Not just to thinking about it, but to doing, and that's actually the big underlying thing with the podcast is-

David Cancel: I love it-

Remington Begg: ...unpacking.

David Cancel: So we'll have a link to it.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah we'll link to it.

David Cancel: Want to know what else we have on the bottom here?

Dave Gerhardt: What should we have?

David Cancel: Please leave six star.

Dave Gerhardt: Six stars.

David Cancel: Six stars-

Dave Gerhardt: Six star reviews only.

David Cancel: ...to review George and Remington being on the podcast. You know how you do it, you leave it, Apple's still broken and Stitchers broken too. By the way-

Dave Gerhardt: Can we fix, can you help-

David Cancel: They only allow five stars-

Dave Gerhardt: ...maybe George knows something. We've been trying to get in touch with the people at Apple, because they don't allow anybody, the Seeking Wisdom fans to leave six star reviews.

David Cancel: So they leave five stars.

Remington Begg: You guys want a new category.

David Cancel: Yeah we want to create a new category-

Remington Begg: For six stars.

David Cancel: Six stars, and then what people do is in the title or description, they leave the six stars.

Dave Gerhardt: Somebody at Apple knows by now.

David Cancel: Yeah, they should know by now-

Remington Begg: Like what's happened?

Dave Gerhardt: Somewhere somebody filed a ticket for it somewhere, but-

George B. Thomas: Well after this is over I'll hit him up on speed dial.

Dave Gerhardt: Whoa.

David Cancel: All right, it happens to everybody.

Dave Gerhardt: I haven't checked the ratings in a while.

David Cancel: DHE is moving. Leave a little comment for DHE. Shout out.

Dave Gerhardt: She's been here for a year.

David Cancel: For a year.

Dave Gerhardt: She helped us bring Seeking Wisdom to video.

David Cancel: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: Which is amazing.

David Cancel: First to video.

Dave Gerhardt: Which is amazing.

David Cancel: And she's going off somewhere and wish her good luck, leave her a comment. Shout it out.

Dave Gerhardt: We're almost at 500 reviews by the way, 500 five star ratings.

Remington Begg: How many? So how much is almost?

Dave Gerhardt: 435?

Remington Begg: Dude we got to get these people review up.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah you know what, I'm realizing-

David Cancel: Slacking, why don't we have a thousand yet, dude?

Dave Gerhardt: I don't know, again ding the review not, okay.

David Cancel: Remington is like mm-hmm (affirmative) 435 is-

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah, listen to this, hey look I went to the most recent on iTunes, May 7th, 2018-

David Cancel: Remington verify that please.

Dave Gerhardt: Six stars-

Remington Begg: It did say that.

Dave Gerhardt: Cutting edge business growth advice. The stars say five, but the review says six in the text.

David Cancel: That's what we were saying.

Remington Begg: For the top two.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah shout out to E- Carp. If you're looking to stay on top of cutting edge marketing and business growth practices, tune into hashtag seeking wisdom. I love how DG and DC riff on what's working with Drift and what's top of mind for them as they scale the company. So many bits of wisdom for me to ponder throughout my day. Keep sharing the golden nuggets. Erin, shout out to you, Erin. Six stars.

Remington Begg: Boom sauce.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah.

George B. Thomas: He needs to drop the mic right there.

Dave Gerhardt: That's it. Take us out of here.

David Cancel: All right so we're out of here, leave a six star review-

Dave Gerhardt: Will we see you guys at Hypergrowth?

Remington Begg: Absolutely.

Dave Gerhardt: Okay.

Remington Begg: Are you kidding me?

Dave Gerhardt: I was just checking. I was asking you, I was asking them, but-

Remington Begg: Which one?

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah, both of yous.

Remington Begg: No, no-

Dave Gerhardt: We already took care of it.

Remington Begg: Which Hyperdrive?

Dave Gerhardt: Both.

David Cancel: Either which-

Remington Begg: We'll go to both.

David Cancel: Yeah, we go to both.

Dave Gerhardt: Good.

George B. Thomas: Someone should just be yes.

Dave Gerhardt: It was a trick question.

David Cancel: If you want to meet George and Remington in- person-

Dave Gerhardt: Please.

David Cancel: ...go to hypergrowth. drift. com, promo code Seeking Wisdom. Shout it out so you get a nice discount and come hang with them. We're all going to be hanging together and riffing like this. And we can talk more about the Bermuda triangle with Remington.

Dave Gerhardt: Boom.

Remington Begg: Shout out.

David Cancel: See you.

Dave Gerhardt: All right.


If you like this episode, we bet that you’ll love our blog content. blog.drift.com/#subscribe Subscribe to never miss a post & join the 20,000+ other pros committed to getting better every day. ----- Today on Seeking Wisdom we’re breaking down the book Play Bigger, the story behind Conversational Marketing and what went into creating a new category at Drift, and we’re joined by two special guests: Remington Begg (@remingtonbegg) and George B. Thomas (@GeorgeBThomas). Play Bigger Book: https://www.amazon.com/Play-Bigger-Dreamers-Innovators-Dominate/dp/0062407619 Get something out of this episode? Leave a 6 star review on Apple Podcasts. If you're a fan of the show we would LOVE you to join us at HYPERGROWTH -- our annual conference at Drift. Tuesday 9/4 in Boston and Monday 9/24 in SF. You can get your tickets at hypergrowth.drift.com with the promo code SEEKINGWISDOM for just $199 -- and that is the lowest price on the Internet just for SW fans.