32: Customer Feedback
32: Customer Feedback
DC: We're going to pick it up on YouTube or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah. crosstalk.
DC: You ready?
Speaker 2: I'm recording. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They're going to get us.
DC: That's how it's feeling in the lab today. It's that kind of Thursday.
Speaker 2: All right. We didn't even really prep about this, but we're going to talk about it anyway. Today on Seeking Wisdom, we're going to talk about a little framework for customer feedback, what it means and what to do with it.
DC: It's called the Ghostface framework.
Speaker 2: The Ghostface framework, even though that wasn't even Ghostface. That was Action Bronson.
DC: No. Action Bronson. Maybe that's a better way. It's the Action framework.
Speaker 2: We're going to do this podcast. We want to give this thing a name. You sent me this message yesterday and I tweeted it out. I don't have as many followers as you do.
DC: That's for sure.
Speaker 2: DC has been on Twitter since'97.
DC: Yeah. 1997.
Speaker 2: Just for anybody keeping track at home. But I tweeted out this thing that you had mentioned to me. We're basically at this stage of company now where we have a lot of leads, we have a lot of website traffic, people are coming to us and we're starting to get all these different questions about Drift based on different stages of awareness of our customers. Anyway, the thing that you said to me is you said there's basically two types of questions that customers ask. They say," How do I blank?" Or," Can I blank?" And you said that basically" Can I?" is a product marketing challenge and" How do I?" is more of a UX challenge.
DC: Yep. And there was a third class.
Speaker 2: Which was?
Speaker 2: Positioning. Okay.
DC: Positioning question. We need a name for this framework. Maybe we'll call it the Action Bronson framework. The idea is we talk to a lot of people. Because we'd been building customer driven, customer centered teams and products for so long, we talked to a lot of people about the importance of gathering feedback. And in some ways, that is the product that we are building at Drift.
Speaker 2: Totally.
DC: That is its meta. It is the thing that we are building. So a lot of people talk to us and say like," How do I make that actionable?" When I talk to customers," How do I know what to do? How do I pull out of there?"
Speaker 2: Or there's just so much noise.
DC: So much noise.
Speaker 2: Customer feedback, we love it. It's amazing. But it's so hard to filter through all the stuff.
DC: Totally. So that's what they say. And I find when they do listen to customers and when they do take some action, they're focused on the wrong part of, let's say, the feedback or the sentence. They're focused on the subject of the sentence. So the customer might say," Well, how do I integrate this with Trello?" Right? And if they hear that enough times and feedback across their team, they'll start to say," We have a Trello problem. Okay. Let's add Trello features. We need more Trello features. I keep hearing Trello. I keep hearing about Trello." So they'll run and they'll rush to, and I think most product teams do this, to go fix the thing that they think is the subject Trello. If you use a framework like the Action Bronson framework we're going to talk about here, you would have known that actually you maybe didn't need new features and you were focused on the wrong part of the feedback. The feedback you should have focused on was the fact that they said," How do I..."
Speaker 2: Right. So people want to chop off and go to the second half of the sentence, which is the specific thing." Oh, we built this." It's selfish. It's like," This is our thing. We built it. We got to add more juice to it. We got to figure out what to do."
DC: Absolutely. So if they would've focused on the," How do I integrate with Trello?" The" how do I" part of the sentence, then they would have known that that is most likely a usability or user experience issue they have currently in the app. And because the customer, one, is saying," How do I use X?" They already know that X is even possible. They know that you can integrate with Trello in this case. Right? So it's not like a discoverability thing. They know that it's possible. They expect that it's possible, but they just don't know how to get it done.
Speaker 2: Right. Okay. So let's flip that. So you mentioned they know it exists. Now, there's the kind of like before that stage, which is," Can I blank?"
Speaker 2: So the opposite of that question would be," Can I integrate with Trello?"
DC: Exactly. So you may hear in feedback, using Trello as the example, you may hear," Hey, can you guys integrate with Trello?" Or," Can I integrate this part of your app with Trello?" Right? The important part to focus in there is not the Trello part. It is again, the," Can I?" Or," Can you...?" And what that tells you is that you have some level of product marketing issue. Because if you can, and again, we're assuming that you do integrate with Trello, if you can integrate with Trello, the fact that they're asking you that, and they don't know means that they weren't educated properly along some part of the signup or getting started path.
Speaker 2: Right. It could have been a features page on the website where it wasn't clear. It could be a better call out inside of the product.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's funny because we talk about this all the time. Everybody wants to get so deep in the product usage data.
Speaker 2: Right? And this is something that, maybe you pair it with that, but this is something you would never... If you only looked at the data, if you only pulled up your Mixpanel, your Heap, your whatever, to look at your user engagement, you would never see this.
DC: You will never see this stuff come up. And even if you looked at surveys, you might not see this. You might not be able to pick it apart even if you're looking at the conversations and feedback that you're getting with support or from sales unless you know to look for this Action Bronson framework. Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't want to turn this into like a let's plug Drift thing, but I think this is really interesting to me because this is the first time that I've seen the volume of customer communication. Right? Every one of us. I spent five hours this morning doing support. Right?
DC: Did you hear that? Five hours.
Speaker 2: Five hours. I didn't do any work. I talked to customers for five hours. It was crazy.
DC: That is work.
Speaker 2: That is work, yeah. So everybody does that at Drift. But it's just crazy because you get all these questions and it's not a," How do we help with ROI?" Type of thing. This is just straight up like... It's little things like," Hey, I found this typo on your website."" Oh, this link was broken."" How do I do X, Y, and Z?" It's all these little customer discovery things that you're straight up having a one- to- one communication with a customer who's actually helping you out versus saying like," Oh, we did this thing with Drift and the ROI was X, Y, and Z."
DC: Exactly. And if you don't have a framework that you developed, like the one that we're talking about here, and we're going to talk more about it here in future posts that talks-
Speaker 2: Yeah. We're going to write about it. We'll do a graphic.
Speaker 2: We have a bunch of stuff planned to actually turn this into a thing, but we just wanted to kind of get the idea out there today.
DC: So if you don't have this, then you're just overwhelmed by feedback and you don't know what to do. And that's when you start saying things like," Oh, it's a lot of noise. I don't know what to do with it." But user experience issues, as an example, for me, they're like," How do I?" Questions?" What happens when...?"
Speaker 2: Yep.
DC: And then," I try to do..." Right? And those are user experience issues because in all three of those examples, they knew it was possible. They tried to do it, right? Or they're asking, or they're wondering what happens if they do it so they're educated, but they don't know how to do it or it was too complicated to actually do it in your app.
Speaker 2: What's the follow- up to that? So how do I integrate with Trello? What does a UX person or designer, whoever, what's the next step out of that? Is it immediately drop what you're doing and go fix that?
DC: No, I think what you need to do is once you have a framework like this, you start to use it across your team. Whether that's in support, design, whatever. Ideally across the entire company. And you start to use it to categorize all of your feedback that you're getting. So then the action will be, and depending on the cadence of your company, it could be, let's say every week or every month. Let's say it's weekly. We're going to look at the top user experience issues that we categorized using this framework. We're going to prioritize them and we're going to start to make progress on them.
Speaker 2: So ideally you track it all, you have a bucket of people who said the same thing, and then you go and address it.
Speaker 2: Okay. You mentioned this to me yesterday, and this might be the best part about this framework. It's so easy. You don't have to have anything crazy. It's open up a Google Sheet or Excel Doc or whatever, and just write things down as you're hearing them.
DC: Yep. And put them into the right categories and say," This one's a user experience issue. Another user experience issue with Trello. Another user experience issue with this. Oh, we had a product marketing issue with Slack." And the third category, which we didn't talk about, are positioning issues. That's another category that we track. An example of those could be when someone gives you feedback and they're trying to be nice, and they say," I'm probably not your target customer, but..."
Speaker 2: Right. Why is that a positioning issue?
DC: Because if you know that they are your target customer, there's something wrong in your positioning that's letting them to believe like," Oh, I want to give you this feedback, but I'm probably not your right target customer."
Speaker 2: Because you want people to be on your website, thinking," This is me. This is my place. I relate to this."
DC: Exactly. And another example of a positioning issue might be when someone says," Hey, I'm sure I'm wrong about this, but I thought..." And again, what they're communicating to you is actually what is your underlying position or what you're trying to get across, but they are unsure or they're starting to say things like," Oh, I'm sure I'm wrong, but I thought this other thing." Then you probably have some kind of positioning issue that you need to work on.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love it. So listen. Do more listening.
DC: Do more listening. Take your listening and categorize it. Spend the time to use this framework to categorize the feedback that you're getting and then take action and measure the results. Only by doing this will you be able to take the wealth of customer feedback and turn it into something that's actionable for your company.
Speaker 2: I love it. Okay, cool. So for today, quick and dirty version, I will post the little summary of this in the show notes so you can grab it. And then we're going to talk about this more. David's going to write a post about it. We'll do a bunch of other stuff, and we'll go from there.
DC: Feel that.
Speaker 2: Now you're going to ruin our intro music, which by the way, my favorite part of doing this podcast, other than sitting across from you every day-
DC: Oh, yeah. It's delightful.
Speaker 2: ...is when people write in and they're like," Man, when that intro music comes in, my head is nodding." Although I did get an email. This guy's probably listening. I got an email and he said," I love your podcast, except for that annoying intro tune."
DC: Oh, he's dead to me. Dead. Unsubscribe.
Speaker 2: See, there will always be haters.
DC: Yeah, yeah. Unsubscribe. Five star ratings.
Speaker 2: How many?
DC: We're bringing this revolution. We're going to 200, right? We're on our road. We're getting there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
DC: We're getting there.
Speaker 2: I think we have well over 100.
DC: Oh yeah. Like 150, I think, last time I checked. But we're trying to get to 200. When we get to 200, we'll go to 500. 500, we'll go to a thousand. We just keep progressing. It's all about Seeking Wisdom.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to give people a hint at something.
DC: What's that?
Speaker 2: We're writing a book.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
DC: Uh- oh.
Speaker 2: We don't have a name for it, but it's all about the customer driven movement. A bunch of things that you've learned. And we're going to write a book. And who knows, we might even do a little meetup and we can come hang out. Maybe we'll do a live podcast.
DC: inaudible, this was secret, bro.
Speaker 2: Top secret.
DC: Top secret. What do you tell them?
Speaker 2: I thought we can tell them this secret.
DC: That's right. We tell the secrets. We don't hide anything from the community.
Speaker 2: All right. Seeking Wisdom, five star review. We'll talk to you next week.
DC: Only. Make it happen.
Speaker 2: I don't have as many followers as you do.
DC: That's for sure.
Speaker 2: DC has been on Twitter since'97.